Carmel Farmer's Market "No Firearms" signs

[T.Lex]

Not exactly the same issue but here in Bloomington, the locals wanted to have a vendor removed from our farmers market because allegedly, they have ties to a white supremacy group.

The mayor said that it is a public market and according to the First Amendment, they can't forbid them from coming and selling their produce.

It has caused a huge issue which is still going on and has basically killed the market. There was a lot of talk about taking the market private so they could oust the vendor.

So, wouldn't the same apply to firearms restrictions?

It sounds like the 2 situatons are structured differently. In Carmel, the Farmers Market is a private entity that basically leases the area that the market is on.

In Bloomington, it sounds like it is public space that is just allowed to be used for a market. Maybe a first-come-first-served basis? That would mean different rules apply.

 

[gregkl]

It sounds like the 2 situatons are structured differently. In Carmel, the Farmers Market is a private entity that basically leases the area that the market is on.

In Bloomington, it sounds like it is public space that is just allowed to be used for a market. Maybe a first-come-first-served basis? That would mean different rules apply.

I see. I didn't catch that Carmel's was on private property. The Bloomington is on public (or maybe city?) property as far as I know.

 

[T.Lex]

I see. I didn't catch that Carmel's was on private property. The Bloomington is on public (or maybe city?) property as far as I know.

Wwwweeelllllll, the Carmel property might or might not be "private property," but there's almost certainly a rental agreement of some sort to the Carmel Farmers Market entity.

The ownership relationships in public-private partnerships are... muddled... in Carmel.

 

[Ziggidy]

Let's throw this in. If you have CCW insurance that states they will not cover unless you are in a legal carry zone; are you then screwed if you use a gun to defend yourself?

I can see the left liberals deciding to create no carry zones all over as a means to create havoc.

 

[Leadeye]

Most road side stands I've been to sell pretty good produce, especially sweet corn. No one seems to care if I'm armed or not.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Let's throw this in. If you have CCW insurance that states they will not cover unless you are in a legal carry zone; are you then screwed if you use a gun to defend yourself?

I can see the left liberals deciding to create no carry zones all over as a means to create havoc.

Being against some “entities” rules and being illegal are not the same.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Most road side stands I've been to sell pretty good produce, especially sweet corn. No one seems to care if I'm armed or not.

As it should be.

 

[jand1911s]

Thanks for putting this up. This was very informative.

 

[indysims]

I emailed the organization about the signs after attending this Saturday.

This is the response I got:

Each year the Carmel Farmers Market, Inc. requests permission to use the Green and its surrounding walks for the farmers market from the Board of Public Works. CFM receives permission from them for exclusive use of the space from 6 AM to 12:30 PM each Saturday from May through September.

The grant of that permission takes the space during that time out of its public space status. This allows the Market to make it’s own rules. This is the same situation as when an HOA requests permission to close off a street or cul d sac for their annual party. In those cases they, for example, can reserve attendance to only their HOA members. And they can set their own rules and policies for hours, food and beverages allowed, etc.
We began to post the signs four weeks ago after receiving numerous complaints at the Committee Tent about a guest carrying a .40 cal S&W, just like mine, on his hip.
Please note that firearms are prohibited in both the adjoining buildings ... the Palladium and the Tarkington.
Best regards, Ron Ronald E. Carter President Carmel Farmers Markets 317-710-0162

I replied that I was disappointed that the organization chose to deny a constitutional right on public property because people complained.

 

[T.Lex]

Ron Carter is no friend to the 2A, despite the assertion that supposedly carries. He's very much a "fine for me, but not for thee" kinda guy.

It is still an open question whether the Palladium and Tarkington can forbid carry.

 

[Tactically Fat]

I say fire a warning shot into the ground and then we'll find out for sure.

 

[T.Lex]

I say fire a warning shot into the ground and then we'll find out for sure.

Wrangle those straggling farmers back into their market.

 

[indysims]

Sounds like a boondoggle to me, The city basically forms a non profit made up of city counsel members to run a civic minded event on public property. This gives them a way to enforce their rules outside of what's normal on public grounds.

 

[T.Lex]

Welcome to Carmel.

The traffic circles were first going to be called "loopholes" but that name was already taken.

 

[indysims]

I like roundy-rounds

 

[ashby koss]

IANAL!!!!! but....

Does it matter? Worst case it’s private property and if you leave when asked that’s it. If you go in concealed even if they “think” your still carrying they cannot search your person. Without reason. (They are not police) still, worst they could do is ask you to leave.

if it’s public property it would have to be specifically listed as a no go to have force of law.

 

[Ingomike]

Yes, probably.

In Carmel's case, though, it appears to be a consequence of very complicated/sophisticated financing and ownership arrangements that were in place (or in process) before pre-emption went into effect. Turns out, having a private entity own/operate a property with .gov subsidies can be lucrative for alot of people.

It isn't really a loophole, though, but built into the statute as an exception for entities that lease .gov-owned property. Certain sports franchises in Indy have strong lobbyists and they want to restrict gun possession in the places they play. The exception just applies to lots of other events.

Sounds like a boondoggle to me, The city basically forms a non profit made up of city counsel members to run a civic minded event on public property. This gives them a way to enforce their rules outside of what's normal on public grounds.

It wasn't set up for that reason, it was to have public/private finance partnerships and special tax districts for them as T-Lex explained...

 

[indysims]

IANAL!!!!! but....

Does it matter? Worst case it’s private property and if you leave when asked that’s it. If you go in concealed even if they “think” your still carrying they cannot search your person. Without reason. (They are not police) still, worst they could do is ask you to leave.

if it’s public property it would have to be specifically listed as a no go to have force of law.

Big picture it doesn't, my habits won't change. I just don't like the attempt to encroach on rights. It also further demonizes carrying firearms by good people.

 

[Route 45]

IANAL!!!!! but....

Does it matter? Worst case it’s private property and if you leave when asked that’s it. If you go in concealed even if they “think” your still carrying they cannot search your person. Without reason. (They are not police) still, worst they could do is ask you to leave.

if it’s public property it would have to be specifically listed as a no go to have force of law.

Some people just can't help themselves. These are the same people who send letters to the ATF asking if they can shoulder a pistol brace.

Concealed means concealed.

 

[Sigblitz]

I emailed the organization about the signs after attending this Saturday.

This is the response I got:

Each year the Carmel Farmers Market, Inc. requests permission to use the Green and its surrounding walks for the farmers market from the Board of Public Works. CFM receives permission from them for exclusive use of the space from 6 AM to 12:30 PM each Saturday from May through September.

The grant of that permission takes the space during that time out of its public space status. This allows the Market to make it’s own rules. This is the same situation as when an HOA requests permission to close off a street or cul d sac for their annual party. In those cases they, for example, can reserve attendance to only their HOA members. And they can set their own rules and policies for hours, food and beverages allowed, etc.
We began to post the signs four weeks ago after receiving numerous complaints at the Committee Tent about a guest carrying a .40 cal S&W, just like mine, on his hip.
Please note that firearms are prohibited in both the adjoining buildings ... the Palladium and the Tarkington.
Best regards, Ron Ronald E. Carter President Carmel Farmers Markets 317-710-0162

I replied that I was disappointed that the organization chose to deny a constitutional right on public property because people complained.

Sounds like they're not renting, but just have permission to sell on the property. And they made their own decision to post the signs. That letter is gold.

Also, could your HOA tell you that you can't carry on your public street during your party?