Centerfire rifles using handgun cartridges not allowed for state or public deer

[POC]

How many injuries have there been by rifles?

 

[ru44mag]

We had that argument over the past few years. It's gone through all it needs to go through, meetings, hearings and such.

Yeah. I won't argue one way or the other, I just seriously doubt we will convince the government that it is okay to use high powered rifles on public land. After reading about a bill the federal government is trying to pass now, we will be lucky if they don't take everything away but our bows and muzzle loaders. The thread started here earlier today.

[h=3]Terrible Bill just introduced in the US Congress[/h]

 

[ART338WM]

Do you mean I have been collecting handgun caliber lever action carbines for nothing? I will have to use hunting prowess with a muzzle loader (one shot one kill) rather than firepower? Oh fiddle sticks.

No offence meant, but that strikes me as a rather narrow minded opinion of the situation. If like me you have young sons that this is going to be their first ever firearm deer season then a revolver caliber rifle or as is my case lever action rifles in 35 Remington made excellent financial and practical sense in that #1 both have non existent recoil vs slug guns, both are reasonably affordable and cheaper then most slug guns and as I reload the ammo for a CF rifle costs 1/3-1/4th the cost of sabot ammo.

So in my honest opinion outlawing rifles in calibers no more powerful or with nay more of an effective range than a 12 or 20 gauge slug gun like a .357, 45lc, 44mag, 450 SOCOM, 450 Bushmaster or 35 Remington was pure idiocy plane and simple.

 

[mom45]

Thanks mom. I like your trail cam pics.

I have some new guys showing up...need to post pics in the thread.

 

[bwframe]

Yeah. I won't argue one way or the other, I just seriously doubt we will convince the government that it is okay to use high powered rifles on public land. After reading about a bill the federal government is trying to pass now, we will be lucky if they don't take everything away but our bows and muzzle loaders. The thread started here earlier today.

Terrible Bill just introduced in the US Congress

We don't have to convince the govt of anything. We just have to get our representatives to do their job or be voted out of office.

 

[Terry4570]

I saw this on WDRB News at 10p.m. and they reported no rifles on public land and the little mix up that was printed and also two black ducks not one .

 

[BravoMike]

i posted earlier but I will post again. What, specifically, changed from 2016 to 2017 at suddenly makes this an issue this year? Line 1 appears to be identical from year to year. DNR Saying that a law from this year makes all PCRs illegal seems like total BS

Can any of our resident attorneys speak to this?

I have been looking myself and it seems that the way it was worded for last year would prohibit the use of rifles on public land as well. The easiest way I found the changes was to look at the latest version of the bill linked below.

https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2017/bills/house/1415#document-0d021974

 

[Max Volume]

The new, correct ruling was on the Indiana Department of Natural Resources Facebook page........NO RIFLES ON PUBLIC LAND.........That means both state and federal land.

 

[two70]

Right. And from the 2016 code it was exactly the same. Verbatim. So why is it an issue now vs last year?

It was a mistake made by legislators that know nothing about firearms or hunting. I spent several hours on this yesterday. Go back to post #72 and read through until post #98 It is explained through there.

Dnurk, is exactly correct. The only thing that changed between the 2016 law and the 2017 law was the change from the limitation of .243 and .308 calibers only in 2016 to .243 and up in 2017. So either the DNR got it wrong by allowing PCRs on public land in 2016 or they suddenly changed their interpretation very late in the season for 2017. Given that the DNR waited this long to make the corrections and that they are (demonstrably falsely) blaming the 2017 law for this, seems to be pretty strong indicators that it was latter.

 

[two70]

SECTION 1. IC 14-22-2-8 IS ADDED TO THE INDIANA CODEAS A NEWSECTION TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVEUPON PASSAGE]:Sec. 8. (a) This section applies to a huntingseason beginning after June 30, 2016, and ending before January1, 2020.(b) A hunter may use a rifle during the firearms season to huntdeer subject to the following1) The use of a rifle is permitted only on privately ownedland.(2) The rifle must have a barrel length of at least sixteen (16)inches.(3) The rifle must be chambered for one (1) of the followingcartridgesA) .243.(B) .30-30.(C) .300.(D) .30-06.(E) .308.(4) A hunter may not possess more than ten (10) cartridges forthe rifle while hunting deer under this section.(5) The rifle must meet any other requirements established by
HEA 1231 — CC 1​

2the department.(c) The use of a full metal jacketed bullet to hunt deer isunlawful.(d) The department shall report on the impact of the use of riflesto hunt deer under this section to the governor and, in an electronicformat under IC 5-14-6, the general assembly before February 15,2020.(e) This section expires June 30, 2020.



​

Above is what was passed in 2016. Notice that it says at the very beginning that this section was added to Indiana Code and Indiana Code already contained (and had for 10 plus years) a section allowing rifle cartridges of .357 caliber and larger with a case length between 1.10" and 1.8".

The only change made in 2017 is the following:

3) The rifle must be chambered for a cartridge that fires a bullet that is two hundred forty-three thousandths (.243) of an inch in diameter or larger.
(4) The rifle must fire a cartridge that has a minimum case length of one and sixteen-hundredths (1.16) inches, but is no longer than three (3) inches


So the only change between 2016 and 2017 concerning the formerly allowed use of pistol caliber rifles on public lands is the DNR's interpretation of the code. The DNR was either incorrect in 2016 or are now incorrect in 2017. Either way, the DNR's attempt to blame this new interpretation of the Indiana Code on the law passed in 2017 is demonstrably false. IMO, blaming the legislators who tried to give us more hunting options in the first place and then went back immediately the following year to correct the errors in the first attempt instead is beyond foolish. If you want to direct blame at some entity, then direct it at the DNR which killed the first attempts at allowing rifles and now has clearly botched interpretation(either in 2016 or 2017) of rifle rules.

 

[CountryBoy19]

So, on the subject, I took this out of the guide.
Handguns, other than muzzleloading
handguns, must have a barrel at least 4 inches
long and mustfire a bullet of .243-inch diam
-
eter or larger. The handgun cartridge case,
without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches
long. There is no maximum cartridge length
for those used in handguns. Full metal-jack
-
eted bullets are not permitted. The handgun
must not be a rifle that has a barrel less than
18 inches. (A rifle with a barrel less than 18
inches is not considered a handgun.

Has this changed too? I hunt on private land, but what are they targeting with that last sentence? I don't remember it before and what is the significance of 18"? I get that an SBR is not a handgun, but are they trying to do away with the AR handguns?

IC defines SBRs as handguns (you need a LTCH to carry an SBR). Back when PCRs & handguns (rifle calibers are legal in handguns) were the only game in town folks were using this "loophole" to legally hunt with high-power shoulder-fired rifles that qualified as handguns. IE, a .308 with a barrel length of 15.5" was a "handgun". It has to be federally registered as an SBR, but it's a once & done thing that gets you the ability to hunt with HPR. As you're probably aware, an SBR has a barrel less than 16" and a SBS has a barrel less than 18". I don't think there was ever a definitive answer to where 18" came from but there were 2 main "credible" theories. #1 They got confused and used the 18" barrel length requirement from shotguns. or #2 There are SOME SBRs that exist that meet the definition of an SBR due to overall length, but still have barrels longer than 16" (mainly break-action guns). The 18" requirement is an effort to also eliminate those cases from being legal to use rifle calibers for hunting; in most cases, requiring an extra 2" on barrel length made the overall length long-enough that it no longer meets the SBR definition).

 

[PGRChaplain]

Here is the IDNR Facebook Post, it clearly states No Rifles.



[h=5]Indiana Department of Natural Resources[/h] · 19 hrs ·





Important corrections to Indiana Hunting & Trapping Guide:
Indiana deer and waterfowl hunters need to be aware of two important changes in the print version of the 2017-2018 Hunting & Trapping Guide.
Due to recent legislation passed this year by the Indiana General Assembly, hunters can no longer use rifles when hunting deer on public land. “Public land” includes both state and federal property. Before the change, the use of rifles on public land had been legal.
It remains... legal to use a muzzleloader, shotgun or handgun when hunting deer on public land in accordance with deer hunting regulations.
The waterfowl correction is that the daily bag limit for black ducks is two. The printed Hunting and Trapping Guide mistakenly states the bag limit as one. The online Indiana Hunting & Trapping Guide has been updated with these corrections. You can view the updated guide at wildlife.IN.gov/2343.htm
For more information on rifle requirements for deer hunting on private land, visit wildlife.IN.gov/7389.htm and click on “Equipment.”
For up to date information on waterfowl seasons, visit: wildlife.IN.gov/3569.htm

 

[PGRChaplain]

I forgot to Mention in the prior post, .50 Cal Muzzy & .44 Mag Revolver for sale!

 

[Ithaca45]

We all need to contact our legislators and let them know how much we want them to get this fixed!

 

[Mgderf]

We all need to contact our legislators and let them know how much we want them to get this fixed!

Or give up their seat to someone who will!

 

[gundawg]

Just FYI, a link to the Legiscan page for HB 1415;

https://legiscan.com/IN/bill/HB1415/2017

and a link to the text of the bill as passed (relevant language is on page 4):

https://legiscan.com/IN/text/HB1415/2017

 

[dugsagun]

I agree with peeps above, i'm gonna call BS on the dnr's part. As people have posted, the regs are approved in april and the guide is printed months later. The code they are referencing has only changed with relations to min caliber and case length . This is the DNR, with, what a month to fireams season, getting a big ol' case of butt hurt and trying to take it out on law abiding hunters.

 

[gundawg]

Like many, I only learned of this fiasco today when I got an email from the DNR.

Having invested over $1,000 in a handgun caliber rifle, scope and ammunition for this year's firearms season, and investing my time and energy sighting in, practicing and preparing to use it, you can imagine my disgust with the ignorant, incompetent and irresponsible bums in the state legislature. After all, these are the same idiots who legalized .308 Winchester rifles but decided .45-70 Government rifles were too much gun. Now I will have to put the heavy rifled barrel back on the heavy 870, re-mount the scope, sight it in again and lug that cannon again this year.

I'm very concerned about the people who rely on the printed DNR regulations book and don't do internet or aren't on the DNR email list. There are going to be people hunting public land with rifles in good faith, totally unaware they are violating the law. They are one over-zealous CO and one anti-gun or anti-hunting prosecutor away from some very expensive and potentially criminal consequences.

Also concerned for people on a budget who may find it difficult financially move to a different firearm before hunting season. Some of them already have licenses and depend on harvested game to feed themselves and their families.

It's a terrible mess and the people responsible, our legislators and our governor, won't have to deal with any of the consequences. We will.

 

[snapping turtle]

Been chasing distance for deer for years. In hindsite maybe that was not needed.

First gun smooth barreled 20 gauge single shot (1977)
next smooth bore 870 12 gauge pump action. (1982-83)
next 357 max handgun single shot pistol. (1984-85)
Next hasting rifled barrel for 870 (1988-89)
next 35 Remington pistol barrel. (1986-87)
Carried the pistol and slug gun for a few years into the stand which while weird let me go from zero to 200 yards. (Not cool looking for sure)
next 7-30 water barrel for pistol. (Accurate as heck) (1990's)
next 44 mag PRC lever (most likely the best setup for most of my deer hunting) (first PCR year)
next another 44 mag lever PCR (gave the first to my father for xmas) (Second PCR year)
last year I ran a 308 lever once 44 mag several days and my AK once because well I could.
This year I came on a encore frame and barrel combo sale with some 16 inch barrels. Sold off the extra frame and muzzleloader barrel and Fore end. So far the trigger sucks compared to a gen one contender the fireball from a 30-06 pistol in 16 inch barrel is something to see at dusk. Also have 308 and 270 barrels for it but did not have enough ammo for them in stock to set them up yet. I still think this purchase was like a poker player running on a tilt when the new law came in play. A way to stick it to the man legally. This thing is also very loud and accurate as a rifle shot off shooting stick or a bi-pod.

All of this chasing distance and if you throw out the one long shot on a buck deer (130 steps) the average distance of all deer shot over the 40 years was 20-30 yards with many being just say three corn rows away. All could have been taken with that fist single shot smooth bore most likely but it was not accurate. Deer may have been poorly hit. My marlin levers out to 100 or so are basically dead nuts accurate but my deer tend to run dead further than I would like.

Hopefully this year year will go fine and we see re written law for public lands that allow PCR maybe with the addition of say the 30-30 35 rem and 444 45-70 the basic hunter lever actions in the rest of the United States. In places where hunter density is high the newer rifle rules are maybe not best idea and need to be limited. But if the round does not travel farther than the shotgun it is not needed to be restricted maybe not either.

The best dollar spent for deer hunting at the moment seem to me to be the crossbow firing a bolt over 300-350 fps. Run it oct 1 till end of season with 60 yard shots into a baseball size group fairly easy to do and with practice farther shots seem to be possible.
My bow hunting is still a 1995 era PSE bow shootin 2117's with overdraw. It has a lifetime PSE warranty and I know the next time it needs anything (believe it or now string included) the will want to give me a new bow instead. I think I got the very last cam in the nation for it a few years ago. Maybe they make a nice crossbow I can upgrade to.

If if you are stuck with only hunting state land and need a gun to get you by this year the old foster style slugs and a shotgun seems to be the cheaper way to go. Most of us have a shotgun. A few boxes of pumpkin balls are cheap and within range they can do the job. Look at it as a retro 1970's hunt.

I would be be fine with the old PCR being allowed back. Maybe we can get the 30-30 35 rem and 45-70 thrown in for the season lost.

 

[chipbennett]

[Edit turned into a dupe?]