Child Support & Human Nature

[Paco Bedejo]

Dad Threw Daughter Off Cliff to Avoid Child Support, Says Prosecutor - Crimesider - CBS News

This story raises a question in my mind. Does our child support system incite violence?

My background: I have no children & am not from a broken family.

The article doesn't say how much this guy earned at his job, but I'm thinking that $1,000/mo is a bit steep for child support. For me, that would be slightly more than 1/2 of my take-home pay.

Do they really drain you of 50% of your income for a single child? If not, what's the highest you folks have heard example of. It seems ridiculous to me.

Presuming that the prosecutor is right in his assertion...why do we, as a society, think it's appropriate to back biological fathers so far into a corner that they would feel justified in throwing their child off a cliff & into the ocean?

The reason I bring all of this up is this; if $1,000/mo child support can conceivably bring modern-Americans to do such a thing...what are we going to be in for when unemployment runs out & people begin to starve?

This is why I've evolved from, last year, wondering what the big fuss about firearms was to, this year, carrying an XDm 40 CCW everywhere I go & trying to get my hands on ammo to practice with both it & my sks.

Human nature scares me...and modern mainstream Americans more-so than others because of how complacent we've become.

 

[jennybird]

Dad Threw Daughter Off Cliff to Avoid Child Support, Says Prosecutor - Crimesider - CBS News

This story raises a question in my mind. Does our child support system incite violence?

Violence isn't caused by child support any more than it's caused by guns. I find it unsettling to even suggest such a thing. The number of children being raised without fathers wasn't caused by the child support system... It was caused by irresponsible, selfish men.

Disclaimer: I know there are single dads out there as well. The road goes both ways and you are to be commended as well. I salute all you single parents out there who have taken the high road and are responsible for your children.

Oh, and no, 50% of income is not the formula for figuring child support.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

My brother-in-law pays about $25k in child support per year.

It's no one's fault but his own.

He's not a violent man.

But is capable of it should the need arise (due to his job).

No correlation between his bad choices and is current mental state...

-J-

 

[Scutter01]

The thought of someone doing that to a little kid makes me physically ill. I'm literally sitting here trying not to vomit.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Violence isn't caused by child support any more than it's caused by guns. I find it unsettling to even suggest such a thing. The number of children being raised without fathers wasn't caused by the child support system... It was caused by irresponsible, selfish men.

Disclaimer: I know there are single dads out there as well. The road goes both ways and you are to be commended as well. I salute all you single parents out there who have taken the high road and are responsible for your children.

Oh, and no, 50% of income is not the formula for figuring child support.

1: It's not always ONLY an irresponsible man...Womens' legs can close, contrary to popular belief. Either way, this is a topic outside the realm of this discussion.

2: I'm not trying to dog on single parents in any way, shape or form. Human nature is what it is & there will always be single parents.

3: I wasn't implying guaranteed cause/effect. However, when you back anything into a corner it will either break & submit, or lash out violently. If someone perceives that they have no other options, then bad things will often ensue.

Either I'm getting ripped off only bringing home $2,000/mo as a Project Manager/Engineer, or this guy was ordered to pay a significant portion of his Baggage Handler salary for the support of ONE child he didn't want.

I'm not advocating abortion, just pointing out the currently inherent hypocrisy that mothers get to choose while fathers cannot & they're typically the one who ends up with the crippling wage garnishments.

And stating "he should have kept it in his pants" doesn't change the fact that this all-to-common situation can ruin a man's life. Most testimonials I've heard on the matter indicate that mothers typically get free rides, even after marrying or remarrying, while fathers either work hard to live in poverty & beg for visitation rights or break & become deadbeats.

To be constructive, what would you estimate is the average monthly cost to raise a child, including low-cost childcare? I know for a fact it's nowhere near the $1,000/mo this man was being forced to pay.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I've heard of $60/wk/child. Obviously, the formula used is far more complex than either that or "whatever amount it would take to make him work three jobs and still not be able to afford anything but mac&cheese and ramen."

Blessings,
Bill

 

[CarmelHP]

Why do the innocent children always end up paying for their parents' evil? If he did this, he should fry. Animals have always run among us, he is not new. What's new is that we no longer exterminate monsters when we find them.

 

[mikea46996]

I agree with every poster here, this man needs to fry!!!!!


I believe what Paco Bedejo was getting at is deeper then what we are reading on the surface.

The question at hand is if something like child support can drive a man to kill his child what will happen when the welfare system stops???

How about the upstanding guys/girls who worked hard all their lives and have been unable to find a job and their unemployment runs out???

Our resident author Jerry D. Young wrote an interesting story about a person who had similar things go wrong.

The fact that this man killed a child enrages me, but I don't believe that is the issue Paco Bedejo is trying to raise.

 

[jennybird]

1: It's not always ONLY an irresponsible man...Womens' legs can close, contrary to popular belief. Either way, this is a topic outside the realm of this discussion. The irrisponsibility I referred to was regarding the care for the child, not whether or not the parents should or should not have had sex in the first place.

2: I'm not trying to dog on single parents in any way, shape or form. Human nature is what it is & there will always be single parents. Stuff happens. Society has changed. People as a whole aren't as responsible for their own actions as they used to be.

3: I wasn't implying guaranteed cause/effect. However, when you back anything into a corner it will either break & submit, or lash out violently. If someone perceives that they have no other options, then bad things will often ensue. Let us not forget that the single mother is usually backed into a corner as well. Typically however, they fight there way through without resorting to violence.

Either I'm getting ripped off only bringing home $2,000/mo as a Project Manager/Engineer, or this guy was ordered to pay a significant portion of his Baggage Handler salary for the support of ONE child he didn't want. I believe the article suggested that the guy had been trying to get out of paying support for quite some time. If he was ordered to pay half of his paycheck, it was most likely to make up for what he was in arrears. His original support was probably only a small fraction of that.

I'm not advocating abortion, just pointing out the currently inherent hypocrisy that mothers get to choose while fathers cannot & they're typically the one who ends up with the crippling wage garnishments. The majority of the time, the mother is left to care for the child both physically, emotionally, and financially, 24 hours of every day for the next 18 years. The father is typically asked for mere financial assistance. How is that fair? At least ol' dad still gets his freedom.

And stating "he should have kept it in his pants" doesn't change the fact this this all-to-common situation can ruin a man's life. Most testimonials I've heard on the matter indicate that mothers typically get free rides, even after marrying or remarrying, while fathers either work hard to live in poverty & beg for visitation rights or break & become deadbeats. Who are these testimonials you speak of coming from? Resentful fathers? I'm sure there are exceptions, as there are to every rule, but most mothers are far from getting a "free ride". To even suggest it is ludicrous. Hon, I raised two daughters by myself. We were married when they were born so spare me the "should have kept your legs closed speech." He stopped contacting them and refused to pay a dime. He is now in arrears to the tune of over $100,000 plus medical bills and college. I could throw him in jail, but what's the point? He would view that as free room and board and it would cost me even more in attorney's fees.

Now, his friends and family would say he is the victim because I up and left his cheating, drunken, gambling, physically and mentally abusive butt. Why? Because they are deaf to anything but his pathetic, butt-covering sob story. Sounds to me like you've heard a few of these stories too.

I struggled to keep a roof over the kids heads, food in their bellies, and clothes on their backs. Daycare expenses were over $100 per week for EACH of them, just so I could go to work. I have paid every dime of their medical bills, dental bills, extracurricular activities, clothing, book fees, entertainment, childcare, insurance, college tuition, drivers ed classes, car insurance, etc., etc., etc. Do you still feel sorry for their dad? His family would sure like you to.

I see this same scenerio every day. Do not judge what you do not know.

To be constructive, what would you estimate is the average monthly cost to raise a child, including low-cost childcare? I know for a fact it's nowhere near the $1,000/mo this man was being forced to pay.

There is no "low cost" childcare. There are some government assist childcare programs, but from my experience, they are in dangerous locations, in run-down buildings, with some very questionable people running the facilities.

I've never broken it down by month as you asked, but how can you know for a fact that it doesn't cost that much if you have no children? Grant it, I had two kids to raise, but daycare alone cost more than my rent at the time. And don't forget that part of child support money is meant to pay for the child's living accommodations as well (rent, utilities, etc).

Not mad atcha hon, don't take this the wrong way or anything. I just get fumed when people start with the "oh those poor fathers" kicks. Some serious educating needs to be done.

 

[CarmelHP]

If someone deals with adversity by going feral and preying on others he needs to be put out of his misery. Those who say that they will start stealing and therefore starving others if they run out of food need to know the price they will and should pay.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

I agree with every poster here, this man needs to fry!!!!!


I believe what Paco Bedejo was getting at is deeper then what we are reading on the surface.

The question at hand is if something like child support can drive a man to kill his child what will happen when the welfare system stops???

How about the upstanding guys/girls who worked hard all their lives and have been unable to find a job and their unemployment runs out???

Our resident author Jerry D. Young wrote an interesting story about a person who had similar things go wrong.

The fact that this man killed a child enrages me, but I don't believe that is the issue Paco Bedejo is trying to raise.

Thanks for noticing

I'm actually going for a two-fold question here.

1. How bad is the child support system, really? How many parents could potentially be hair's-breadth from committing similarly horrible acts out of perceived desperation?

2. With this situation in mind, how much more dangerous is the situation of welfare & unemployment if they're exhausted? I always thought Mad Max was really far fetched...but man, when selfish people get hungry, look out.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

There is no "low cost" childcare. There are some government assist childcare programs, but from my experience, they are in dangerous locations, in run-down buildings, with some very questionable people running the facilities.

I've never broken it down by month as you asked, but how can you know for a fact that it doesn't cost that much if you have no children? Grant it, I had two kids to raise, but daycare alone cost more than my rent at the time. And don't forget that part of child support money is meant to pay for the child's living accommodations as well (rent, utilities, etc).

Not mad atcha hon, don't take this the wrong way or anything. I just get fumed when people start with the "oh those poor fathers" kicks. Some serious educating needs to be done.

If you re-read my original post, you'll not find a single spot where I'm even implying "oh those poor fathers". You're inferring something because of your personal situation which simply isn't there. My questions are quite generalized. Please do not make this personal. If you insist, I'll just request a thread deletion because it won't be constructive or helpful at all.

The reason I know for a fact that a child doesn't cost $1,000/mo to raise (barring extenuating circumstances) is because I personally know at least 3 families who raise multiple children (families of 2 adults & 2 or more kids) on wages around $1500/mo. If the cost were even $750/mo per child, then the adults would have starved to death in the 1st few weeks.

 

[Bill of Rights]

If someone deals with adversity by going feral and preying on others he needs to be put out of his misery....

No argument, Carmel, but if I may offer a slight correction:

If someone deals with adversity by preying on others, that person needs to be put out of our misery.

A wolf, a feral dog or cat, etc. is not miserable, it is only doing what it must to survive. This does not mean that we do not execute it if it is a threat to our lives or safety, nor does that action necessarily happen without some remorse, not for the action but for the circumstance that made it necessary.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[jennybird]

Thanks for noticing

I'm actually going for a two-fold question here.

1. How bad is the child support system, really? How many parents could potentially be hair's-breadth from committing similarly horrible acts out of perceived desperation?

2. With this situation in mind, how much more dangerous is the situation of welfare & unemployment if they're exhausted? I always thought Mad Max was really far fetched...but man, when selfish people get hungry, look out.

I guess I should answer your question a bit more directly than I did previously. Sorry I may have gotten off on a bit of a rant there

First, a thought. Money makes the world go round. Men place much of their self-worth on their financial success/stability. When money gets thin, men do crazy things.

You're really talking about two different situations though.

One, a man who is forced to pay for a child he does not want. This would logically lead to violence against the child or mother of the child directly.

Two, a man who has no income to take care of his family because of the downfall of the economy. This man, in my opinion, is more likely to commit acts of violence against strangers in order to care for his family. Only when the situation is deemed irreversably hopeless will he then murder his family in order to end their suffering.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

If someone deals with adversity by going feral and preying on others he needs to be put out of his misery. Those who say that they will start stealing and therefore starving others if they run out of food need to know the price they will and should pay.

Carmel, I agree with you 100%. It's too easy right now, when backed into a corner, to just fall back onto the system, whether it be welfare or prison.

Our current legal system isn't a crime deterrent in any way other than financially...and when someone's financially destitute anyhow (or feels that they are), what stops them from committing heinous crimes?

 

[CulpeperMM]

I believe what Paco Bedejo was getting at is deeper then what we are reading on the surface.

The question at hand is if something like child support can drive a man to kill his child what will happen when the welfare system stops???

The fact that this man killed a child enrages me, but I don't believe that is the issue Paco Bedejo is trying to raise.

this is how i read this as well

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

According to an article in today's Indy Star , in June of this year 1,289 people received their last UI check . So these incidents could be rising .

 

[jennybird]

If you re-read my original post, you'll not find a single spot where I'm even implying "oh those poor fathers". You're inferring something because of your personal situation which simply isn't there. My questions are quite generalized. Please do not make this personal. If you insist, I'll just request a thread deletion because it won't be constructive or helpful at all.

No, it wasn't your original post, it was this one...

I'm not advocating abortion, just pointing out the currently inherent hypocrisy that mothers get to choose while fathers cannot & they're typically the one who ends up with the crippling wage garnishments.

And stating "he should have kept it in his pants" doesn't change the fact that this all-to-common situation can ruin a man's life. Most testimonials I've heard on the matter indicate that mothers typically get free rides, even after marrying or remarrying, while fathers either work hard to live in poverty & beg for visitation rights or break & become deadbeats.

The reason I know for a fact that a child doesn't cost $1,000/mo to raise (barring extenuating circumstances) is because I personally know at least 3 families who raise multiple children (families of 2 adults & 2 or more kids) on wages around $1500/mo. If the cost were even $750/mo per child, then the adults would have starved to death in the 1st few weeks.

This would depend on several factors. How much is rent, daycare, insurance, medical, etc. Generally speaking I would say no, it doesn't cost that much. However, like I said, the guy in the article was probably in arrears and ordered to pay that much until he was caught up.

 

[hornadylnl]

I wonder if the National Organization for Women will pay for his defense like they did Andrea Yates. She's the one who systematically drowned her 5 children and yet she is still stealing oxygen. There is definitely a different judicial standard for men and women in this country. The guy should fry but so should Yates.

 

[Zoub]

The reason I bring all of this up is this; if $1,000/mo child support can conceivably bring modern-Americans to do such a thing...what are we going to be in for when unemployment runs out & people begin to starve?

Don't blur this subject with child support and domestic violence and don't let yourself be fooled by phrases like "Modern" or even civillized.

Being ordered to pay Child support, Federal Taxes, State Taxes, County Taxes, Student Loans and even Traffic Tickets can make people nuts. Trust me on this. There is a huge segment of the population that has a sense of entitlement and feel they do not have to pay their bills. Trust me on this too.

When Adults abuse or kill pets and children it is about control and hurting other adults. They are sick!

Man is no different genetically then he was 10-20k years ago. In each of us is a hunter and a killer. Regardless of why a person loses it, when he does he is capable of anything.

Watch Grapes of Wrath. Reread anything about WWII, things like concentration camps and Batan death march. It will give you a big picture of what path we may find ourselves on in general. It starts with hunger and poverty. If you feed them and give them clothes you can focus their anger. Look at our President, a well dressed angry Muslim.

You have arrived at a very simple place in your life, you have refused to be a victim. It needs no justification.