Church Hosted Preschool... OK to carry to service?

[firefighter4884]

My fiance and I have decided that we'd like our children (when the come along) to grow up in a church. As neither of us are from this area in particular, we are attending services at different churches to find one that we fit in with.

Went to a local church on Sunday morning, and noticed on the way into the property a sign that said "preschool / headstart -->"

I'm sure the the preschool / headstart is in the same building as the sanctuary where the services are held.

As is my custom I had a handgun on my person (I have a LTCH), Glock 19 in a M.T.A.C holster to be exact. I chose to disarm before the service because I was not 100% sure on the legalities.

Do I have to disarm if I come across a similar situation, or would I have been good to go?

Thanks,

JIm

 

[rambone]

I'm pretty sure that's one of the special cases where church carry is against the law.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Yup. Carry there is against the law unless you have permission to do so. Maybe an agreement that they either have you as part of a volunteer security force or that they pay you to serve in that capacity at $1.00/week, which you then donate back as charitable contribution. (Remember that nothing happened at Jeanne Assam's church, either.... until it did.)

My only advice would be "get it in writing and have a good attorney look it over. I'd be concerned with liability (i.e. police have none if they do not respond... do you?) among other issues.

IANAL.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[jim2100]

Wow I had no idea that there is a law regarding churches. What is the law if one knows. Does it matter if the school is in session? What about the regular Sunday School that most churches have? The next time I will be in church is Christmas Eve. Is it illegal to carry there then? Jim Gary, In.

 

[Jubbie]

As far as I know there are no open times to carry on school property. I believe for civilians the only time you can carry on the property is when you are picking up/dropping off your child for school. Maybe just gotta find a church that doesn't have an attached school. Sunday School doesn't count since it's just another church service. It's the day-care type schools & K-whatever attached where you actually have to register to attend that are prohibited to carry.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Wow I had no idea that there is a law regarding churches. What is the law if one knows. Does it matter if the school is in session? What about the regular Sunday School that most churches have? The next time I will be in church is Christmas Eve. Is it illegal to carry there then? Jim Gary, In.

It's not a law about carry in churches, it's the law about carrying on school property:


IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.


IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).

I am personally of the opinion that
"A person who has been employed or authorized by a school or another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school" may carry lawfully. I have no reson to perform or participate in school functions or any activity authorized by a school at this point and do not have the funds to be the test case, nor do I wish to risk a felony conviction. I have been advised by an attorney outside of the attorney-client relationship that this part of the law would not cover me.

Therefore, I would say that whoever is in charge of the school should be the one from whom you obtain that written permission to carry there.

Note that IANAL.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[bigus_D]

As far as I know there are no open times to carry on school property. I believe for civilians the only time you can carry on the property is when you are picking up/dropping off your child for school...

To futher clarify, on school property, civilians can only carry when picking up or dropping off WHILE OPPERATING THEIR VEHICLES... i.e. get out to help Susie put her bag in the car, you are violating the law.

Not specific to the church question, but worth reiterating to all of those packing parents.

 

[eldirector]

I'm in the same boat, Jim. My wife and I have discussed attending my old church once our child is born (I've been away for a long time). I noticed that they recently added a licensed pre-school. Now, in order to exercise the 1st, I need to give up the 2nd.

Also note, I believe knives, tazers, and stun-guns are illegal as well (IC 35-47-5-2.5 and IC 35-47-8-4).

Chemicals (mace) seem to still be legal.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

The only small silver lining to any of this business is that most all LEO don't know this aspect of the law.

Yet.

-J-

 

[Jubbie]

The only small silver lining to any of this business is that most all LEO don't know this aspect of the law.

Yet.

-J-

Thought most of them acted like carrying anywhere is illegal.

 

[theweakerbrother]

I'm a big advocate of open carry.

But also remember, discretion is available.

Concealed means concealed.

 

[MontereyC6]

The only small silver lining to any of this business is that most all LEO don't know this aspect of the law.

Yet.

-J-

What he said. Indy_Guy_77 and I are a part of our church starting a security team. Our church does have a Pre-K school. It's amazing that the LEO'S and retired LEO'S don't have any idea on this issue. When we do get everything finalized, I will have a letter from the church giving me authorization to carry a weapon on church grounds. Until then, I won't.

 

[eldirector]

In this case, concealed also means felony conviction if outed. I would never suggest that someone intentionally commits a felony.

As a few folks have mentioned, we do have options:
- park off-site and secure your sidearm in the vehicle
- Become a member (or start) a Church Security group, and get authorized to carry
- Join a different church
- Stay home, sleep in, and watch football (just adding a little humor!)

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Yep... What MontereyC6 said.

It's also been said in our meetings that "there are several people who carry here"...

Well then, they're all committing a felony just by stepping foot (Or even leaving a firearm in their car) anywhere on our church's property. Unfortunately.

And to expand a little on my previous comment: If anything DID happen at our church, and someone else DID stop further action by an active shooter in that situation, I honestly seriously doubt that anything would be made of the fact that the church contains a licensed preschool. But for me personally, I can't take that chance.

-J-

 

[mainjet]

And to expand a little on my previous comment: If anything DID happen at our church, and someone else DID stop further action by an active shooter in that situation, I honestly seriously doubt that anything would be made of the fact that the church contains a licensed preschool. But for me personally, I can't take that chance.

-J-

Unfortunetly in this crazy world we live in if the bad guy lives then he could probably sue you because you were caring even know he was commiting a crime.

And if he doesn't live then his family would end up doing it for him.

 

[GetA2J]

It has been my understanding that a Church that has a preschool or daycare is considered a "school" by defenition "even if the school owned by the church is NOT on the imediate church grounds.*"

*: "The land where the sanctuary is located."

 

[Bruenor]

For those who are part of a security group at your church, how did it get started? Was it the pastor or member of the board/staff/advisory group who suggested it, or just someone from the congregation? Do you have any tips on how to address this issue at a church that currently does not have any form of security?

 

[MontereyC6]

For those who are part of a security group at your church, how did it get started? Was it the pastor or member of the board/staff/advisory group who suggested it, or just someone from the congregation? Do you have any tips on how to address this issue at a church that currently does not have any form of security?

Our church has had some what of a "security" group for a couple years. It was more of just having a couple LEO's in each service. What is being put together now is all encompassing of fire alarms, weather emergencies, medical emergencies, bad guys in the building, etc. I'm not sure of which template they used, but there are several out there on various websites. One that I have bookmarked is Church Security, Church Safety, Church Security Training, and Church Security System to Help You Increase Church Security Planning for Membership and Children's Church Security. There are quite a few others as well. If you are interested in starting or getting involved with your church's security, talk with one of your pastors and I'm sure they can send you to the right person to talk with, if that person exits in your church.

 

[chiggins83187]

For those who are part of a security group at your church, how did it get started? Was it the pastor or member of the board/staff/advisory group who suggested it, or just someone from the congregation? Do you have any tips on how to address this issue at a church that currently does not have any form of security?

We are in the process of moving into a new building, and we have never had a security/emergency plans (or team) in place. Since this whole field of security is of interest of me, I took it upon myself to approach the staff. They loved the idea! Many had thought about it, but never took enough interest in it to get something started. A great resource is Christian Security Network. They have a feed on their front page of incidents at churches all across the US, which would/should be pretty compelling to a staff that is resistant to the idea.

J

 

[Bruenor]

We are in the process of moving into a new building, and we have never had a security/emergency plans (or team) in place. Since this whole field of security is of interest of me, I took it upon myself to approach the staff. They loved the idea! Many had thought about it, but never took enough interest in it to get something started. A great resource is Christian Security Network. They have a feed on their front page of incidents at churches all across the US, which would/should be pretty compelling to a staff that is resistant to the idea.

J

Thanks for the website, but you're link is off. Here's the correct one.