-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...
- Thread starter PaulF
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
JeepHammer
SHOOTER
OK, starting over...
I've never been able to have a conversation with Judeo-Christian-Islam based religion believer without an issue.
I also don't know anyone else seeking an explanation of 'Belief' without issues with the same.
--------
Switching to science, new paragraph, changing gears...
Science has found a direct relationship between the number of connections between the amygdala & temporal lobe in the human brain and faith.
People of faith have had these connections damaged, and those surviving that kind of brain damage, and still able to communicate report a loss of faith.
I full well admit this is a small test group since brain damage deep enough to reach these areas usually don't survive or communicate coherently,
But the recent wars produced an unusual number of surviving traumatic brain injuries.
Now, it's been dubbed 'The God Spot'.
I don't use that as either positive or negative, it's just shorter than the actual name of the field of study.
Determination if it's a 'Defect' or not... Since nearly 2/3 of humans have it... I wouldn't call it a defect since it's so common.
Is it like an appendix? A remnant of something we used to be or need? Don't know... No opinion, but it's possible.
Does it allow for some kind of sensory perception other than the standard 5 senses? I don't know, but I don't discount the possibility.
What has been studied, born, diagnosed psychopaths don't have the connections even if they claim they have faith later in life after they get caught doing something horrendous.
What has been studied, the more 'Faithful' people claim to be the more connections.
This study is limited since the faithful rarely die of something and have committed to a study before their deaths, and don't get excited or die in prison where the state has control of the remains.
The more horrific the crime, the less likely someone is to claim the remains... So they have a larger study subject group.
People with lesser connections tend to be more along the lines of deists, rather than hard core believers in a specific religious dogma.
-------------
Again, new paragraph, new subject, leaving the 'God Spot' behind.
As for hard core religious believers, it's been my experience that some still believe in slavery, chopping off hands, basically all the bad parts of the Judeo-Christian-Islam texts.
These people also seem to think ignoring the parts about divorce, hard drink, lying, cheating, stealing etc., And they don't forgive ANYTHING, those parts don't seem to apply to THEM, or the modern day.
This would make anyone wonder if they were dealing with a sociopath or psychopath rather than a 'True Believer' since the parts they choose benefits THEM.
One breath saying they are 'Good Christians'Since, the next relating stories about beating some 'idiot' out of his money, jacking up costs when dealing with people ignorant of his particular occupation, padding the bill... Doesn't quite jibe with the claim of being a good Christian.
This confuses me and I have a LOT more questions than answers when it happens...
------------
Again, new paragraph, switching subjects...
I am abrasive.
I spent 16 years in the military and I expect to get a direct answer when I ask a direct question.
I never expected everyone to directly know the differences between science & religion, clear definitions & divisions, and that apparently isn't the case.
Religion is discussed in the church or equivalent, science is internal ballistics, external ballistics & terminal ballistics.
Science is mass, velocity, inertia while religion is about how YOU feel when the target drops, and how you feel later about putting that target down.
I don't have the slightest idea how to help someone deal with that action after it's done, that's something I don't have a clue about because that's in the 'Belief' territory, and the Corps doesn't teach that...
Side note,
When you question dropping people, the Corps discharges you calling it 'Crippling' PTSD, Survivors Guilt, etc., or find another excuse.
I know because I was part of that system.
And if you think the VA can deal with PTSD, then ask why up to 10 veterans kill themselves every day, or ask any vet about how effective his PTSD treatment has been (hint: no treatment, they just control you with drugs).
*IF* self examination were a path to 'Faith', then about every vet should have 'Faith'.
Any thoughts on why that doesn't happen in so many cases?
I've never been able to have a conversation with Judeo-Christian-Islam based religion believer without an issue.
I also don't know anyone else seeking an explanation of 'Belief' without issues with the same.
--------
Switching to science, new paragraph, changing gears...
Science has found a direct relationship between the number of connections between the amygdala & temporal lobe in the human brain and faith.
People of faith have had these connections damaged, and those surviving that kind of brain damage, and still able to communicate report a loss of faith.
I full well admit this is a small test group since brain damage deep enough to reach these areas usually don't survive or communicate coherently,
But the recent wars produced an unusual number of surviving traumatic brain injuries.
Now, it's been dubbed 'The God Spot'.
I don't use that as either positive or negative, it's just shorter than the actual name of the field of study.
Determination if it's a 'Defect' or not... Since nearly 2/3 of humans have it... I wouldn't call it a defect since it's so common.
Is it like an appendix? A remnant of something we used to be or need? Don't know... No opinion, but it's possible.
Does it allow for some kind of sensory perception other than the standard 5 senses? I don't know, but I don't discount the possibility.
What has been studied, born, diagnosed psychopaths don't have the connections even if they claim they have faith later in life after they get caught doing something horrendous.
What has been studied, the more 'Faithful' people claim to be the more connections.
This study is limited since the faithful rarely die of something and have committed to a study before their deaths, and don't get excited or die in prison where the state has control of the remains.
The more horrific the crime, the less likely someone is to claim the remains... So they have a larger study subject group.
People with lesser connections tend to be more along the lines of deists, rather than hard core believers in a specific religious dogma.
-------------
Again, new paragraph, new subject, leaving the 'God Spot' behind.
As for hard core religious believers, it's been my experience that some still believe in slavery, chopping off hands, basically all the bad parts of the Judeo-Christian-Islam texts.
These people also seem to think ignoring the parts about divorce, hard drink, lying, cheating, stealing etc., And they don't forgive ANYTHING, those parts don't seem to apply to THEM, or the modern day.
This would make anyone wonder if they were dealing with a sociopath or psychopath rather than a 'True Believer' since the parts they choose benefits THEM.
One breath saying they are 'Good Christians'Since, the next relating stories about beating some 'idiot' out of his money, jacking up costs when dealing with people ignorant of his particular occupation, padding the bill... Doesn't quite jibe with the claim of being a good Christian.
This confuses me and I have a LOT more questions than answers when it happens...
------------
Again, new paragraph, switching subjects...
I am abrasive.
I spent 16 years in the military and I expect to get a direct answer when I ask a direct question.
I never expected everyone to directly know the differences between science & religion, clear definitions & divisions, and that apparently isn't the case.
Religion is discussed in the church or equivalent, science is internal ballistics, external ballistics & terminal ballistics.
Science is mass, velocity, inertia while religion is about how YOU feel when the target drops, and how you feel later about putting that target down.
I don't have the slightest idea how to help someone deal with that action after it's done, that's something I don't have a clue about because that's in the 'Belief' territory, and the Corps doesn't teach that...
Side note,
When you question dropping people, the Corps discharges you calling it 'Crippling' PTSD, Survivors Guilt, etc., or find another excuse.
I know because I was part of that system.
And if you think the VA can deal with PTSD, then ask why up to 10 veterans kill themselves every day, or ask any vet about how effective his PTSD treatment has been (hint: no treatment, they just control you with drugs).
*IF* self examination were a path to 'Faith', then about every vet should have 'Faith'.
Any thoughts on why that doesn't happen in so many cases?
OK, so please alone me to address each one of these points. A lot of them are arguments I haven't heard before, so I'm going to flex my brain muscle and do some checking.
I'm a bit confused, Spanish wasn't recorded before the 9th century, so I'm unsure how you think the Greek name Ἰησοῦς is derived from a language that would come into being for another 800 years.
Joseph, or in Hebrew יוֹסֵף, dates to at least the 5th century BC.
Mary, or in Aramaic, מרים, is derived from Egyptian, the close name Miriam, is also as old and from the same source.
How exactly early English translators came up with Jesus, Joseph and Mary (Ha! I sound like a surprised Irish Catholic woman!), is somewhat irrelevant as they are recorded as Ἰησοῦς, Ἰωσήφ, and Μαρία, by Luke and others in the first century.
You know, I lament unrealistic depictions of the tall, handsome, well coifed Jesus by El Greco and others. I cringe every Xmas when I see "white baby Jesus" in mangers. I'm not sure what else I can say except racial bias isn't unique to America.
I disagree. The earliest is when Jesus made those claims about himself. Then, John lays it all out in his gospel. Furthermore, Paul is none to subtle in his claims of divinity in the mid first century.
I believe you're referencing the First Council of Nicaea. Just because the result was the first creed, and formalization of the doctrine of Christology, doesn't mean the belief wasn't widely held before then. Honestly, it's been quite a while since I study the various councils, Foszoe would be the guy to address those further.
I find it incredibly interesting when Christians who ostensibly believe God created the Universe, he freed the slaves in Egypt, Jesus performed all sorts of miracles, took on the sin of mankind at death, resurrected... yet the virgin birth gives them heartburn? Doesn't Matthew 1:18-25 clear all this up?
Not tracking.
You asked these question earlier:
The fact is, it doesn't. It's not a scientific treatise about creation of the universe. It does describe why the universe was created. The early Hebrews didn't care about how so much as why. In contrast, our fact-based scientific society is more concerned about how instead of why. Unfortunately, the Bible was written to the Hebrews, so we don't get the answers we want from the Bible. That's were science gives us the answers. That's why science and religion complement each other - one says how, one say why.
Let's agree to disagree. The theory of evolution is still evolving. E.g. What ever happened to punctuated equillibrium?
I don't believe in extraterrestrial life.
I think you're hinting at the coincidence of flood stories in many wide cultures. To me that seems to go to its veracity. If you have other specific issues, I'll address them.
The Bible makes no mention of the date or even season of Christ birth. Let's face it, there's a whole lot of man made myths about Xmas, e.g. Three Wise Men. None of this changes the actual recorded history, or lessens Christ's impact or mission. Perhaps Foszoe will chime in about the early church. But, I do know that even today, exact dates of birth aren't as important in Eastern cultures as they are in Western cultures.
Not sure what you mean by "moved". It's clearly recorded that it coincided with Passover.
Why did so many people die for a myth? The disciples were all there, so presumably they all knew it was just one big hoax. They had no power, they had no wealth, just scorn, torture, and death; yet they persevered until the end.
There is. First, there's the gospels. Four separate account of Christ from direct witnesses. In any other context for the time period, this would be sufficient, yet for the Bible, somehow the bar gets moved way higher...
Circa 110, Pliny wrote about a "troublesome group" call Christians who "... assemble before daylight and recite by turns a form of words to Christ as a god; and they bound themselves with an oath, ..."
There's Christian inscriptions found in the ruins of Pompeii (79 AD)
Tacitus writes about the fires of Rome (64 AD) and Christians. Without going into details, he confirms the time of Jesus and the location. If I'm correct, Tacitus attest that Christ was crucified by Pilate.
Cicero, Suetonius both write about the "problem" with Christians. Thus it can be derived that Christians were already in Rome by 49 AD.
Then there's the Jewish author Josephus... and Rabbi Eliezer...
All this confirms some of the historicity of the account of Jesus and show that Christianity spread early and fast.
How did this happen? If Christianity had appeal, such as wealth or prosperity, I could understand it. But no, to become a Christian in a world dominated by Rome and Pharisaical law, Christianity was as close as you get to a death sentence (just like today in many countries).
They've been answered multiple times to multiple people and written in multiple books.
Any other concerns I may address?
Last edited:
Yeah... even I don't know what to make of Ezekiel.
I do remember there was a tank or something in Command & Conquer called "Ezekiel's Wheel".
You have to realize if you want to continue... that connecting religious people with brain damage is not productive, and not positive, and not going to illicit a reasoned response.
You're throwing that out as a jab, because it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the conversations going on right now.
JeepHammer
SHOOTER
If you ask me,
Alex Jones is bat s**t crazy, he's WAY past the run of the mill crazy.
Joe Rogan will say anything to keep an audience, but solves ZERO issues, and needs an education on EVERYTHING.
As for talking to aliens, and them talking back to you, with an objective instead of subjective (religious) view, about a 50/50 chance either way.
Gods are most certainly alien compared to humans, we are not gods, they are not humans, so it's 50/50.
From a science standpoint it's a 50/50 split between schizophrenia & made up story seeking attention.
Keep in mind, with science, when you talk to god it's praying. Waste of time but harmless.
When god talks directly to you, it's mental illness...
The 'Gods' opening line... "Do not be afraid", coincidentally then opening line of every serial killer!
Not saying there is a connection, just pointing out the coincidence...
I don't know about you, but God or alien, the first thing I'm going to do (assuming I wasn't hit with a paralyzing ray) I would RUN while taking a dump in my jeans!
A god can zap you out of existence because he/she/it's in bad mood, an alien needs his 'death ray', but the results are the same for me either way, so I'M GONE!
Not suffering from Dunning-Kruger I'm not the best person for contact, so let that person take his/her chances...
I really hope we change your impression. I believe other INGO atheist have found their interactions with INGO Christians to be favorable for the most part.
Also, even the few INGO Muslims have had favorable and enlightening interactions with all in this context.
Well said.
From the Babylon Bee's TL/DR guide to the Bible:
Ezekiel – A total Lovecraftian mind-trip with bones and eagles and flaming psychedelic wheels and stuff.
Ezekiel – A total Lovecraftian mind-trip with bones and eagles and flaming psychedelic wheels and stuff.
JeepHammer
SHOOTER
Not a 'Jab' since I don't know the function of the connections. Just a statement of fact.
There are two basic ideas,
One is it's some sensory connection not everyone has, while everything else in the 'Average' human body has, or had a function.
What *IF* those connections connect some dots the people that don't have it can't make?
Like an appendix, it serves, or did serve a function of some kind... I just don't know what in particular.
The second idea is it's a short circuit in the brain causing delusion.
I don't particularly subscribe to this because so many, nearly 2/3 of the population has the connections.
What would a short circuit causing delusions help humans in the past or currently?
Something suffering from delusions (like temporal lobe disease or problems) wouldn't function well enough to survive during keyhole events.
I just think it's interesting that the faithful have them, the more they have the more faith they seem to claim,
And since I used the word claim, there isn't any reason to believe the claims are false. It's their response.
It's also ONE of the areas (plural) that lights up while praying during an MRI/CAT scan, or being shown religious images.
Different areas light up when praying, others when viewing religious icons (the most obvious being the visual centers), while those connections light up with both.
It's science, make out of it what you want to, but don't assume I'm beating anyone over the head with it to be an insult...
Originally, those connections were believed to be related to 'Imagination'.
Imagination can't be measured, neither can depth of belief, you have to rely on what the subject reports.
It was the subjects themselves that reported a 'Loss Of Faith' after damage, which set the science in a new direction.
They didn't report a loss of imagination...
I don't possess enough imagination, or education, to speculate, so I'm watching the research by actual professionals.
Dunning-Kruger aside, I'm not a neurologist or brain function specialists and don't play one on TV either...
Both religious & pure science are researching it... And I'm watching because I'm simply curious! Too ignorant to follow it all, but still curious...
With religion AND pure science interested, and so very few things that attract the attention of both, it's rare to be sure, which piques my interest even more.
Then, speaking as someone that isn't really on either side of this conversation... I'm not a militant atheist, and I'm not a devout Christian...
When I read your posts, you come off as a labratory scientist, observing and speaking to the people in this thread as though they were lab rats or subjects to be studied.
That... has a little bit of a superiority whiff to it. Again, you do you, no need to heed whatever my observations are... but perhaps coming off more as an equal would be more beneficial to everyone involved. "They" may learn more about you, and you may learn more about "them"... without it seeming like you're using them as an experiment or something.
Or maybe I'm the only one seeing it that way.
I will say, however, I have been enjoying the banter here lately. I do like what you're bringing to the thread, and the responses to you. It's interesting, on every side.
.
JeepHammer
SHOOTER
Pretend you are talking to a US Marine Gunnery Sergeant...
How would you expect a Marine Gunnery Sergeant to communicate?
...... There you go....
As for scientific seeming, all, everyone, no exceptions are to be studied. Not 'Lab Rats', but take in as much as I'm able.
The larger the sample source the more accurate the findings.
Observation is the first step of science...
And don't assume I don't study my own actions, probably more myself than others since I know what I'm thinking...
And YES, I do pick EVERYTHING apart, quantify, classify, qualify, verify, etc.
And it might not surprise anyone, but I was also diagnosed with asperger's syndrome in the Marines.
They were trying to decide if I was a psychopath, but concluded I have Asperger's syndrome.
It works FOR me in a big way when something has to be done by tight specification.
It works FOR me in a big way when I'm building machines or components.
Not so good for dealing with people, between being a career Marine & asperger's, it's often difficult face to face, and darn near impossible over the internet.
I've apologized repeatedly for being 'Gruff', we all aren't the same...
But the point is, we are NOT equals. Every single person is different.
I can't keep up when the conversation comes to religion simply because I don't have the feeling of faith, and I don't know what it is.
When my wife says, "I'm Fine", I actually believe it.
Someone can be boiling mad at me and I can't tell, which is why I've leaned to always be ready to get punched...
I can build things, completely re-engineer & build things from scratch, often without blueprints since I can work out the components in my head, see things articulated and in wire frame. Most people need a CAD program to do that...
I don't often remember my own birthday, but I can quote obscure facts I leaned 35 years ago.
The biggest part of my work is troubleshooting things everyone else has failed on, often with repeat customers I POed...
I can't make any sense of 'Celebrities' that haven't done anything notable, or anything at all.
I can't make any sense of 'Social Media', it all looks like random brain vomit to me, the stuff your brain should discard when you sleep.
I can't make sense of 'Baby Daddy', even though my niece has three.
I can't make sense of complaining about the president 'Ruining' the country when he can't pass any laws, is only in office for 8 years maximum, and Congress members stay for an AVERAGE of 34 years, and make ALL LAWS that screwed the country up.
There are a LOT of things I don't understand... So we aren't all the same...
well I tried to explain faith above.
are you looking for an explanation of what we believe?
why we believe?
I'm not going to address any other religion than Christianity, but that is not what is taught. Jesus kept the woman from getting stoned by asking that he who has not sinned throw the first stone. I addressed this earlier in the progression from old testament to new. And people who profess faith but do not act accordingly is a good time to use quotes when describing these "Christians." We try to reflect Jesus in our actions. We all fall short at times. There are groups out there with fringe ideas, but I've NEVER met a Christian who thinks slavery is ok, or who wants to kill adulterers, etc.
Perhaps the notion is wrong? I don't think self examination is a path to faith at all. Self examination by itself leads to us being our own god, thinking we have the solution to all the problems. The Bible tells us that to trust only in your own heart is foolish. faith comes from studying the word, from asking God to enhance it, from experiences, ... and from this little part of the brain ...
-rvb
I don't mind. It's a much neglected subject because people have been trained to have a knee jerk response to it.
Vehicles flying around the sky are like any other. There's good ones and bad ones, depending on who's behind the wheel.
But about Ezekiel, the Father was in control of what Ezekiel was allowed to see and report on. The descriptive details tie in with other books of the old testament as one should expect.
science "may" answer how, it "may" answer why....only based on man's perspective/opinion
I probably shouldn't wade into this discussion, but you need to read some history to understand that in the past, some Christians have thought slavery was okay. In fact, during the Civil War, the South declared their constitution invoked the favor and guidance of Almighty God and many, many Southern Baptist preachers used the Bible to support slavery. That, unfortunately, is a fact.
