CNN: Children should get vaccinated. Period.

[Fargo]

Comparing gun ownership to not "believing" in childhood immunization IS possible, it is called Russian roulette. Not everyone who plays Russian roulette dies, not everyone who refuses vaccination dies, but no one dies from Russian roulette if they don't play.

?

Where do the folks with neurological damage from vaccines fall in your analogy?

 

[BugI02]

I believe one of the arguments for increasing border security is to keep immigrants that come from countries where some of these diseases haven't been eradicated from coming in, unvaccinated and possibly spreading them to those that have not been vaccinated here. So that's a potential source for infection.

Correct, and peeps need to be cognizant of the fact that virtually no diseases caused by bacteria can be vaccinated against. You get multi-drug resistant tuberculosis, for example, and youre in for the fight of your life and no guarantee you'll win in the end

As I recall, UN troops from another part of the world, spread a serious cholera outbreak to Haiti without themselves being symptomatic - they had developed immune responses that controlled what for them was a local pathogen but for the Haitians it was a novel pathogen that the entire public had no exposure to and thus no immunity

There is a long list of pathogens that are well controlled in the US that are endemic in the third world. There is no Ellis Island for the southern border (where incoming immigrants were quarantined if they were sick)

 

[JettaKnight]

Overpopulation? In some countries they’re paying people to **** because they’re not making enough future taxpayers to pay for all the free ****.

Yup. In Denmark you can get a free vacation when the female is fertile. I think they only check her, so we should be able to get in on this...

 

[BugI02]

Where do the folks with neurological damage from vaccines fall in your analogy?

Right next to the people abducted by UFOs, a very small number of people with interesting stories that cannot be scientifically disproven based on the limited amount of dispassionate evidence available

 

[ATOMonkey]

Since no two people are chemically or metabolically identical, then it's reasonable to say that not everyone will have the same reaction to any drug they ingest.

Therefore, it's not reasonable to say that all drugs are safe for everyone.

 

[Double T]

I have a child with autism. The diagnosis is not a lie, and the spectrum is not a lie. He takes nothing other than melatonin to try to help him stay asleep longer than 4 hours. Once he is up, he is up.

The school tried to tell us that he has ADHD. He doesn't. He has quirks, and one of them is that if he isn't interested or challenged by something, he sees no point in doing that task...like reading fiction.

To say autism, or the spectrum, isn't real is bordering on obtusity.

 

[Areoflyer09]

More like allowing that un-vaxed child to play Russian Roulette.

If the rest of the community is vaccinated for a particular thing (in general), then they are not at risk from the un-vaccinated child (in general). Heck, even that unvaccinated child is at very low risk to themselves, as there isn't a source for the infection in the first place.

This only stays true as long as unvaccinated people remain the minority. If not vaccinating becomes the norm there will be an increase the risk of outbreaks.

 

[Double T]

Where do the folks with neurological damage from vaccines fall in your analogy?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4718347/

 

[Double T]

This only stays true as long as unvaccinated people remain the minority. If not vaccinating becomes the norm there will be an increase the risk of outbreaks.

Herd immunity falls on deaf ears apparently. Was glad this thread was dead for so long.

 

[Fargo]

Right next to the people abducted by UFOs, a very small number of people with interesting stories that cannot be scientifically disproven based on the limited amount of dispassionate evidence available

Well, according to the loons that run the Mayo clinic up in Rochester Minnesota, I happened to be one of those people so the dripping condescension isn’t really all that cute to me.

Im sure some of the best neurologists in the world are just secretly anti-vaxers.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Was glad this thread was dead for so long.

 

[BugI02]

Since no two people are chemically or metabolically identical, then it's reasonable to say that not everyone will have the same reaction to any drug they ingest.

Therefore, it's not reasonable to say that all drugs are safe for everyone.

I agree. I haven't wanted to go very far at all down this rabbit hole, but a little reading I did on DTaP indicates that studies are blaming brain damage on the affected individuals reaction to attenuated pertussis toxins and endotoxins present in the vaccine. Since pertussis is bacterial, using attenuated bacterial toxins is one pathway to engendering immunity and may indeed be the only pathway short of utilizing fragments of the actual bacterium in a so-called DNA vaccine, nor is any credible source I found implying that the method of attenuating the toxins has resulted in a molecule that is more likely to cause a severe immune reaction (attenuated in this case means modified to be less biologically disruptive)

So when judging the risk of utilizing a potential vaccine, it seems to me one should also judge the potential for the child to ever come in contact with the bacterium; because it is likely exposure to that bacterium will have the same results, especially since the toxins will be in a more biologically active form. That risk is modulated by herd immunity, you are still relying on the decisions of other people to do the right thing to protect your child - kind of like an anti-gun person choosing to frequent primarily gun-friendly commercial establishments because they feel safer knowing many of the surrounding patrons are likely to be armed

 

[BugI02]

Well, according to the loons that run the Mayo clinic up in Rochester Minnesota, I happened to be one of those people so the dripping condescension isn’t really all that cute to me.

Im sure some of the best neurologists in the world are just secretly anti-vaxers.

I know somewhat of your back story, Fargo. It isn't meant to be quite as condescending as it sounds but I apologize for the analogy because it implies quackery on further review. I had meant to refer to people who had some anomalous evidence such as missing time, suppressed/repressed memories etc not the seemingly more prevalent hoaxers in the example. The anecdotal evidence, without the possibility of scientific study of potential causation, kind of gets reduced to statistics, and when I look at statistics I see tenuous links to causality. I don't doubt that children have real problems, and that those problems occur during the age range within which vaccines are given, I just cannot see any strong links with which to draw further conclusions

By no means am I an expert, but for instance what should I make of information in the study I'm about to cite. The citation is only an abstract because I don't pay for full access, but one datum stands out for me

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2571213

A claim for damages, Loveday v Renton and The Wellcome Foundation, heard in the High Court of Justice in London, from early October 1987 until late February 1988 dealt with the general issue of whether, on the balance of probabilities, pertussis vaccine could cause permanent brain damage. The cornerstone of the claim that pertussis vaccine can cause permanent brain damage has always been the apparent clustering of onset of neurological disorders within the first 24-48 h after vaccination. One of the main finds of the NCES, however, which was not divulged in any published report but emerged in the course of the hearing, was that permanent brain damage did not occur within 48 h of DTP vaccination in any child in England, Scotland and Wales from mid-1976 to mid-1979 when 2 million doses of vaccine were used. The NCES, in this respect, completely undermined the evidence provided by various published case series. After a 61 day hearing, High Court judgment was given to the effect that the judge was not satisfied on balance of probability that pertussis vaccine can cause permanent brain damage in young children. Were it not for the fact that The Wellcome Foundation intervened in the action and obtained a court order giving access to the NCES cases records, some crucial information collected by the NCES might not have been brought to light.

So what am I to make of that data? Two million doses given over a three year period, careful records kept, zero instances of the attributed complication. I am reluctant to attribute such data to a world-wide conspiracy to limit pharmaceutical company's exposure to liability, especially since the data predated the legal action by a decade. Occam's razor and all

 

[steveh_131]

Well, according to the loons that run the Mayo clinic up in Rochester Minnesota, I happened to be one of those people so the dripping condescension isn’t really all that cute to me.

Im sure some of the best neurologists in the world are just secretly anti-vaxers.

He's right. Vaccines can and do cause neurological damage, sometimes permanent. It is listed right on the insert.

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/UCM123789.pdf

Vaccine discussions remind me of climate change debates. There is 'settled science', then there are 'deniers'. It's almost religious in nature.

I do find it interesting that so many conservatives will gladly question the 'settled science' of climate change, then go and aggressively condescend to people for questioning the 'settled science' of vaccines.

Have some consistency.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Vaccine discussions remind me of climate change debates. There is 'settled science', then there are 'deniers'. It's almost religious in nature.

I do find it interesting that so many conservatives will gladly question the 'settled science' of climate change, then go and aggressively condescend to people for questioning the 'settled science' of vaccines.

Have some consistency.

It's the nature of the internet. Some (many here) are willing to see nuance and have the conversation.

With any internet argument/debate, it's far easier to think in binaries so you can slap a label on the person you're arguing with and shut down the conversation.

"You're anti-vax!"
"Well, no, but I do have some concerns and thoughts on it."

"You're TDS/NeverTrump!"
"Well, no, but I do have some concerns about him."

"You're a climate denier!"
"Well, no, I'm sure the climate changes, but I have some thoughts as to the cause of it..."

"You hate women!"
"Well, no, but I do have some qualms with regards to how freely abortions are given."

"You want to kill children!"
"Well, no, and I don't see how that's relevant to my interest in gun ownership..."

 

[steveh_131]

So what am I to make of that data? Two million doses given over a three year period, careful records kept, zero instances of the attributed complication. I am reluctant to attribute such data to a world-wide conspiracy to limit pharmaceutical company's exposure to liability, especially since the data predated the legal action by a decade. Occam's razor and all

The problem in my eyes is that these organizations are doing this research because they want to vindicate vaccines. They're approaching it with an agenda. I think the agenda comes from good intentions - the desire to make sure everybody gets vaccinated. I don't think it's some grand, world-wide conspiracy theory. All it takes is a little pre-trial bias to skew data.

So while you could be right, and that research could be right, I don't have much confidence in it. Especially after hearing reliable testimony that even the CDC researchers are EXTREMELY biased in this regard.

It's silly that I should be labeled a quack, or anti-science, or viewed as completely unreasonable. ALL I am asking for it honest, transparent, unbiased research to keep vaccine manufacturers accountable and to allow parents to make informed decisions.

 

[steveh_131]

It's the nature of the internet. Some (many here) are willing to see nuance and have the conversation.

With any internet argument/debate, it's far easier to think in binaries so you can slap a label on the person you're arguing with and shut down the conversation.

"You're anti-vax!"
"Well, no, but I do have some concerns and thoughts on it."

"You're TDS/NeverTrump!"
"Well, no, but I do have some concerns about him."

"You're a climate denier!"
"Well, no, I'm sure the climate changes, but I have some thoughts as to the cause of it..."

"You hate women!"
"Well, no, but I do have some qualms with regards to how freely abortions are given."

"You want to kill children!"
"Well, no, and I don't see how that's relevant to my interest in gun ownership..."

I can't rep you again apparently, but well said.

 

[BugI02]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6751212

Vaccines prepared from live-attenuated viruses (measles, mumps, rubella,[which is MMR II] and trivalent oral poliovirus) can cause symptomatic viral infection of the nervous system, including measles encephalitis, which occurs in 1 of 1,000,000 vaccine recipients; rubella neuritis, in less than 1 of 10,000 recipients; and paralytic poliomyelitis, in 1 of 3,000,000 vaccine recipients or their close contacts. A cause-and-effect relationship between immunization and brachial plexus neuritis, acute transverse myelitis, and cranial neuropathies has been suggested but never proved.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm

MEASLES PREVENTION


The following recommendations concerning adverse events associated with measles vaccination update those applicable sections in "Measles Prevention: Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee" (MMWR 1989; 38{No. S-9}), and they apply regardless of whether the vaccine is administered as a single antigen or as a component of measles-rubella (MR) or measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine. Information concerning adverse events associated with the mumps component of MMR vaccine is reviewed later in this document (see Mumps Prevention), and information concerning the rubella component is located in the previously published ACIP statement for rubella (18).


Side Effects and Adverse Reactions


More than 240 million doses of measles vaccine were distributed in the United States from 1963 through 1993. The vaccine has an excellent record of safety. From 5% to 15% of vaccinees may develop a temperature of greater than or equal to 103 F ( greater than or equal to 39.4 C) beginning 5-12 days after vaccination and usually lasting several days (19). Most persons with fever are otherwise asymptomatic. Transient rashes have been reported for approximately 5% of vaccinees. Central nervous system (CNS) conditions, including encephalitis and encephalopathy, have been reported with a frequency of less than one per million doses administered. The incidence of encephalitis or encephalopathy after measles vaccination of healthy children is lower than the observed incidence of encephalitis of unknown etiology. This finding suggests that the reported severe neurologic disorders temporally associated with measles vaccination were not caused by the vaccine. These adverse events should be anticipated only in susceptible vaccinees and do not appear to be age-related. After revaccination, most reactions should be expected to occur only among the small proportion of persons who failed to respond to the first dose. Personal and Family History of Convulsions


As with the administration of any agent that can produce fever, some children may have a febrile seizure. Although children with a personal or family history of seizures are at increased risk for developing idiopathic epilepsy, febrile seizures following vaccinations do not in themselves increase the probability of subsequent epilepsy or other neurologic disorders. Most convulsions following measles vaccination are simple febrile seizures, and they affect children without known risk factors.


An increased risk of these convulsions may occur among children with a prior history of convulsions or those with a history of convulsions in first-degree family members (i.e., siblings or parents) (20). Although the precise risk cannot be determined, it appears to be low.


In developing vaccination recommendations for these children, ACIP considered a number of factors, including risks from measles disease, the large proportion (5%-7%) of children with a personal or family history of convulsions, and the fact that convulsions following measles vaccine are uncommon. Studies conducted to date have not established an association between MMR vaccination and the development of a residual seizure disorder (5). ACIP concluded that the benefits of vaccinating these children greatly outweigh the risks. They should be vaccinated just as children without such histories.

With respect to the postulated difference between how willing conservatives are to question climate change relative to their willingness to question vaccines, IMO it doesn't exist. The amount the two disparate subjects are subjected to scrutiny appears strictly related to the data. In the case of climate change, the predictions made from the data do not hold up to scrutiny. With respect to neurological complications of vaccination, the statistical incidence is in good agreement with what the data predicts. People aren't saying no complications occur. They are saying that tagging vaccination as the source is not supported by the data ("The incidence of encephalitis or encephalopathy after measles vaccination of healthy children is lower than the observed incidence of encephalitis of unknown etiology. This finding suggests that the reported severe neurologic disorders temporally associated with measles vaccination were not caused by the vaccine.")

As I have nothing but respect for Fargo and SteveH, and I am giving offense without intending to, I'm going to tapout

 

[Leadeye]

Having grown up in the 60s when you just got vaccinated choice or not, and men like Jonas Salk were considered ideals of the nation my impressions of public health are probably old fashioned. I had my own children vaccinated early on against a lot of diseases so decisions made, I don't have much dog left in this fight. That said I think everybody should consider the world as it was before public health when making their decisions. I'm reading an excellent book by Dr. Victor Heiser, a man at the sharp end of the spear in public health in the early 20th century. It's a good read, he was an extraordinary man, and we've come a long way since those times.

 

[HoughMade]

...Was glad this thread was dead for so long.

Would still be dead if INGO hadn't gotten its vaccinations.