Common Ground for Right and Left?

[wakproductions]

I have 2 questions about your son, who you say hates capitalism.
1) Does he have any student loan debt? Or is he surrounded by people who are affected by student loan debt?
2) How's he doing economically? Does he get paid well for what he does?

My theory on why so many young people hate capitalism is that the system has let them down. Young people are struggling to get by - they don't have the economic opportunities that their parents had. Offshoring has killed many white collar jobs and driven down wages. Corporate mega mergers have given the big players too much power to control markets, which also tightens the job market. Those who are employed don't get paid very well, but executive pay has skyrocketed. You also have unethical companies abusing patents, like Mylan Labs which raised the price of the EpiPen 400% (making it unaffordable to have now) and gave the CEO a $16 million pay increase. I've encountered many boomers here in the Midwest who feel deserving of their six or seven figure salaries, but don't want to pay younger employees a livable wage (like $50-$100k) for taking on important roles critical to their company's success.

Millennials and Gen Z have been raised being told that we live in a "capitalist" country. But its failed them. They were all told by their parents to go to college, or else live a life of poverty. So many of them went to college, undertaking huge debt. Then they get into the workforce and don't get paid enough to pay the interest. They can't afford to go to the doctor because healthcare is so expensive. They can't get a fresh start because of that stupid Bush era law that made it impossible to get rid of student loan debt through a bankruptcy. So what options are left? Socialism. If the elites and boomer executives don't collectively wake up and compensate workers more generously, Millennials will eventually use the instrument of the government to extract their wealth.

On the issue of guns, I usually take this path on confronting an anti-gun leftist:
* Does he believe that private citizens should be able to own firearms? Is his belief just coming from the angle that it's just too easy for an irresponsible nut with no training to access firearms?

If so, then you can debate this by showing examples of states like California, New York, and New Jersey, where well intentioned licensing laws have turned into de facto bans from the way they are implemented. It is difficult, if not impossible, to own a gun in some of those states (especially in NYC). Many nonviolent, but uninformed travelers have been arrested and jailed for being in possession of firearms in those states. Lives ruined, and public safety is no better. Show by example that the government is incapable of coming up with a sensible licensing system.

If he takes the argument to assault weapons, show the slippery slope of how an AR-15 ban will also encompass other seemingly less nefarious guns like .22 pistols. Any gun worth using for self defense is an assault weapon.

 

[Dark Star]

.

 

[patience0830]

I have 2 questions about your son, who you say hates capitalism.
1) Does he have any student loan debt? Or is he surrounded by people who are affected by student loan debt?
2) How's he doing economically? Does he get paid well for what he does?

My theory on why so many young people hate capitalism is that the system has let them down. Young people are struggling to get by - they don't have the economic opportunities that their parents had.

Millennials and Gen Z have been raised being told that we live in a "capitalist" country. But its failed them.

The system does not fail you, although you may fail inside the system. Not the system's job to make you a success. It's YOUR job to succeed.

Life is hard. Get a helmet.

Don't whine to me that life is unfair. Get busy and try and even the odds. Learn more. Do more. Work harder. Invent something. The system desigmed to save you will also be designed to control you.

 

[wakproductions]

The system does not fail you, although you may fail inside the system. Not the system's job to make you a success. It's YOUR job to succeed.

Life is hard. Get a helmet.

Don't whine to me that life is unfair. Get busy and try and even the odds. Learn more. Do more. Work harder. Invent something. The system designed to save you will also be designed to control you.

This is part of the problem. Those in power are acting unethically, and people who share your "life's just tough" attitude use that to look the other way from the corruption. Life is tough, but your flippant remark comes across as an excuse for things like patent troll corporations rigging copyright laws to prevent a competitive marketplace from taking shape. It excuses a complacent FTC that allows oligopolies like Google, which actively censor political viewpoints and undermine our freedoms by doing the bidding of regimes like China. It excuses criminal banker CEOs like Dick Fuld who risked other people's money to such an extent that it flushed the whole economy down the toilet in 2008, and then those same bankers declared themselves "too big to fail" and used taxpayer money to pay themselves 8 figure bonuses while all of their employees lost their jobs and had no place to go because the economy was in ruins. I was one of those guys who lost their job in finance. Nobody went to jail for what happened in 2008.

I'm not whining about success or failure, I'm simply pointing out that the system is broken and rotten with corruption, and this makes the playing field not as level as it used to be. The infrastructure, freedom, or whatever it was that made the United States such a terrific place for opportunity is deteriorating and young people are falling through the cracks. Because of the low quality of our education system, these young people conflate the system of cronyism we have now with free market capitalism, and that's where their socialist ideas come from. This is serious Ayn Rand type of stuff happening now.

You are no different than the Fudds who think "they aren't coming for my guns". You're surrounded by the swamp, but don't see it because it hasn't personally put you in a bad situation yet.

 

[cobber]

Blue Loctite or Red?

 

[wakproductions]

Blue Loctite or Red?

Depends on what type of screw you're trying to secure and whether you think you'll ever need to unscrew it for some kind of future maintenance.

 

[2A_Tom]

Green.

 

[Dead Duck]

I agree with retired hookers. - "Not one more inch."

We have already had our rights "Compromised" away for years.
I would like a simple way to explain that point to anti-gunners. The best one I've seen is that cartoon strip thing about a guy sharing his cake with some girl. Is there anything out there that's short and simple with a list of the ordinance/act/code/laws and a date? Not too much detail or their simple mind will get bored.

 

[wakproductions]

I agree with retired hookers. - "Not one more inch."

We have already had our rights "Compromised" away for years.
I would like a simple way to explain that point to anti-gunners. The best one I've seen is that cartoon strip thing about a guy sharing his cake with some girl. Is there anything out there that's short and simple with a list of the ordinance/act/code/laws and a date? Not too much detail or their simple mind will get bored.

What's the best way of responding to a leftist's emotional reaction to seeing news headlines every 6 months or so of people doing normal stuff - attending holiday parties, seeing a movie, eating dinner, going to school, listening to music at a concert... then some nut comes by slaughters them all like fish in a barrel? The leftist ideology is that something better can be done to keep weapons out of the hands of crazy people. Some of them think its possible to ensure that nobody has one of those awful "weapons of war" and that it will all be better.

In the mind of a leftist, they don't want to feel compelled to own and carry their own weapon to defend themselves in public places. They don't believe that's practical or effective, and it creates other problems such as the inconvenience of keeping it secure. Nor do they feel competent enough to be able to handle their own a weapon under that kind of pressure to come out alive. They would also be quick to point out situations like Mandalay Bay, where the shooter was half a mile away and there was no way to fight back because no one could even see where he was. To anti-gun people, fighting back against a crazed person hellbent on using a firearm to kill random people is an exercise in futility and the only way to stop that is if that person didn't have access to a gun to begin with.

Here's an anecdote that sums up the leftist unwillingness to find common ground. One of my coworkers once said that his kindergarten daughter has to go to school with fear of a crazy person attacking them with a gun "so dumbasses can keep their stupid hobby". (That's another funny thing about leftists, they often start rambling their viewpoints with the assumption that everyone else in the room agrees with them.)

I don't know if there can be compromise or a solution with some of the anti-gun people because it's a completely different world view. They see the only solution to domestic terrorists as something more extreme - a comprehensive limitation on the availability firearms to the public.

 

[JettaKnight]

I agree with retired hookers. - "Not one more inch."

We have already had our rights "Compromised" away for years.
I would like a simple way to explain that point to anti-gunners. The best one I've seen is that cartoon strip thing about a guy sharing his cake with some girl. Is there anything out there that's short and simple with a list of the ordinance/act/code/laws and a date? Not too much detail or their simple mind will get bored.

What's the best way of responding to a leftist's emotional reaction to seeing news headlines every 6 months or so of people doing normal stuff - attending holiday parties, seeing a movie, eating dinner, going to school, listening to music at a concert... then some nut comes by slaughters them all like fish in a barrel? The leftist ideology is that something better can be done to keep weapons out of the hands of crazy people. Some of them think its possible to ensure that nobody has one of those awful "weapons of war" and that it will all be better.

In the mind of a leftist, they don't want to feel compelled to own and carry their own weapon to defend themselves in public places. They don't believe that's practical or effective, and it creates other problems such as the inconvenience of keeping it secure. Nor do they feel competent enough to be able to handle their own a weapon under that kind of pressure to come out alive. They would also be quick to point out situations like Mandalay Bay, where the shooter was half a mile away and there was no way to fight back because no one could even see where he was. To anti-gun people, fighting back against a crazed person hellbent on using a firearm to kill random people is an exercise in futility and the only way to stop that is if that person didn't have access to a gun to begin with.

Here's an anecdote that sums up the leftist unwillingness to find common ground. One of my coworkers once said that his kindergarten daughter has to go to school with fear of a crazy person attacking them with a gun "so dumbasses can keep their stupid hobby". (That's another funny thing about leftists, they often start rambling their viewpoints with the assumption that everyone else in the room agrees with them.)

I don't know if there can be compromise or a solution with some of the anti-gun people because it's a completely different world view. They see the only solution to domestic terrorists as something more extreme - a comprehensive limitation on the availability firearms to the public.

So, for both, there is no compromise; common ground is a fallacy when it comes to guns.

You can't have any sort of meaningful dialog when you whole goal is to get your opponent to just agree with you. You need to at least acknowledge you own tribe has some faults.



I'm not advocating for compromise on gun rights, just making an observation about the players.

 

[wakproductions]

So, for both, there is no compromise; common ground is a fallacy when it comes to guns.

You can't have any sort of meaningful dialog when you whole goal is to get your opponent to just agree with you. You need to at least acknowledge you own tribe has some faults.



I'm not advocating for compromise on gun rights, just making an observation about the players.

As much as I enjoy guns, I don't think our side is winnable in the long run. Every time a crazy person murders a bunch of random people, it creates more anti-gun folks. It causes more people who were previously neutral on the topic to become an activist, calling for "something to be done" to prevent the next tragedy. Legislators are incapable and unwilling to do something that will be an actual solution - it's easier for them to legislate comprehensive bans that appeal to the emotional reaction rather than focus on the complex roots of the problem while preserving the rights of gun owners. We can stall them and slow the encroachment of the 2A, but over time rights will be taken away that won't be restored.

Most of the anti-gun people live in a bubble, ignorant of history. They just want to feel safe from the crazy people. They don't care about the people who do own firearms. They aren't interested in owning a firearm. Some might get a thrill if given an opportunity to have a day at the gun range, but if that novelty is lost it's not a big deal to them.

JettaKnight is right - there is no common ground for most leftists. The only chance you have of winning a debate is if the leftist you are talking to strongly believes that citizens should be able to legally own guns.

 

[HoughMade]

It's a fools errand to try to find some position that EVERYONE can agree on.

What we should be trying to do is move people in the center and leaning away from us, closer to us.

I think this would be helped if we sound, look and act reasonable and avoid emotionality....and let's not act like it's just the anti-gunners who traffic in emotion.

 

[Hawkeye7br]

15 years ago, I was a supervisor in a big plastics plant. A department trainer, who actually works for human resources, confided in me. "Half the applicants can't pass the (8th grade level) aptitude test. Half of who's left can't pass the drug test. At best, we interview only one applicant out of four."

Has nothing to do with corporate corruption or patent infringement. It's often just work ethic, or the lack of it. My .02

 

[wakproductions]

15 years ago, I was a supervisor in a big plastics plant. A department trainer, who actually works for human resources, confided in me. "Half the applicants can't pass the (8th grade level) aptitude test. Half of who's left can't pass the drug test. At best, we interview only one applicant out of four."

Has nothing to do with corporate corruption or patent infringement. It's often just work ethic, or the lack of it. My .02

What was the job title and how much did the job pay?

 

[2A_Tom]

As much as I enjoy guns, I don't think our side is winnable in the long run.

So just give up or man up, that is the only option.

If you have already given up in your heart you are lost.

Convincing fence sitters is the only way.

What was the job title and how much did the job pay?

It really does not matter.

 

[wakproductions]

So just give up or man up, that is the only option.

If you have already given up in your heart you are lost.

Convincing fence sitters is the only way.

It really does not matter.

I haven't given up at all nor telling anyone to give up. I'm just being a realist about this. Every election cycle is a coin flip. Heads, we hold our ground and keep our rights. Tails, we lose some rights and it will be very difficult, if not impossible to get them back. Somehow, even with things working against us like Obama, we managed to keep heads flipping for us. That's impressive. But eventually, there's going to be a tail flip and the outcome will be troublesome for us. Look at places like California and New York where rights get chipped away and how hard it is for them to hold back the dam.

There are examples where rights have been won back in our favor. The original AWB expiration, MacDonald vs Chicago, concealed carry and constitutional carry wins. The pro-gun side is strong and can win, but we've got to stay vigilant and bring those fence sitters over to our side as well as we can. That's the only way to stay ahead.

Unfortunately, I think setbacks are coming. All it takes is for Democrats to have a brief majority at the federal level to bring back the tyrannical "assault weapons ban" and other terrible things.

I thought the original post was interesting because OP's son sounds like he is one of those fence sitters that leans left. I'm trying to explain here where his leftist ideas come from, but it feels like it's falling a bit on deaf ears. If we don't understand the rationality for their point of view, we can't debate them, we can't win them over, and they are likely to go vote for politicians who coincidentally will be rabidly anti-gun. I'm telling you that the young people in this country are struggling economically. I know quite a few people in their 20s and early 30s who are educated, driven, and hard working, but still can't pull in enough income to provide for a family or even themselves without debt. They don't feel that our current economic system will take care of them in the way that previous generations had pensions, job security, and higher real earnings. Pointing fingers at these young people and saying it's all their fault is unproductive. They are going to lash out at the ballot box voting for whomever promises them better economic opportunities, and taking gun rights away as collateral damage. I'm warning you this is coming.

Here's a video I ran into talking about it. It's an advertisement, but I think the intro is spot-on: https://orders.stansberryresearch.com/?cid=MKT417512&eid=MKT423398&assetId=AST111548&page=1

15 years ago, I was a supervisor in a big plastics plant. A department trainer, who actually works for human resources, confided in me. "Half the applicants can't pass the (8th grade level) aptitude test. Half of who's left can't pass the drug test. At best, we interview only one applicant out of four."

Has nothing to do with corporate corruption or patent infringement. It's often just work ethic, or the lack of it. My .02

What was the job title and how much did the job pay?

Yes, the pay does matter. Would you do the job you do for minimum wage?

I'm willing to bet that the job mentioned by Hawkeye paid close to minimum wage. You won't get competent workers without offering them opportunity. The hiring market is like any other market or purchase driven by simple supply/demand curves - you get what you pay for. The reason I say this confidently is that I've seen this happen in the workplace quite often - company managers want great candidates with a ton of qualifications but lowball them on salary. Then they blame the job market. I hope I'm wrong about this case.


So I think to get common ground with the anti-gun left, you'll also have to win them over on other issues that matter to them as well. Our political system is about candidates and platforms, and therefore you kind of have to sort of sell multiple points on the right to get someone to lean more right.

 

[2A_Tom]

When I got out of the Army I started as a laborer on a carpentry crew for $3.50 an hour that was 35 cents over minimum.

If you have a work ethic you will rise to the highest level you are capable of. I still have contractors calling me for advice.

My peter Principle experience was trying to run my own carpentry company.

I am considered one of the best carpenters in NWI, by many. I am not a very good business man.

 

[DadSmith]

I have family members that are hard core socialists and vote Democrat every election. They own evil black guns with high capacity mags. I ask them why they vote for people that want 99% of their firearms confiscated. They have no answer. It doesn't make sense to me. I love them they love me and we have a great relationship. I just can't understand.

Every time we lose a right we will never get it back again.

 

[wakproductions]

I have family members that are hard core socialists and vote Democrat every election. They own evil black guns with high capacity mags. I ask them why they vote for people that want 99% of their firearms confiscated. They have no answer. It doesn't make sense to me. I love them they love me and we have a great relationship. I just can't understand.

Every time we lose a right we will never get it back again.

I hear ya! Several years ago I worked in Chicago and my team had a female coworker in her mid 20s. This girl was about as radical left as they come. Abortion advocate, anti-gun, and bigtime Bernie supporter. One evening after work I hung out with her and her boyfriend for some drinks. Somehow the conversation topic got on SHTF and societal collapse. She said that if that ever happens, she's going to go to the rural area where her parents and uncles live.... because they have guns!

 

[Hawkeye7br]

What was the job title and how much did the job pay?

15 years ago, New hires started about $12/hr, after 90 days they went to $14. A union job, everyone was automatically on a ladder to operator as their seniority & openings coincided. Operator pay was $17, circa 2005.Maintenance guys working a lot of over time often earned more than their supervisor.12 hour shifts, you worked 15 days a month, scheduled overtime was built in. When I left in late 2007, over half the department was around $43k.

My point was, a whole generation is coming into the workforce expecting 100% pay for 60% effort. They have never been forced to work a truly crappy job, and therefore have no appreciation for a good job. They don't want to come to work on time, don't understand why you can't hit a joint on morning break, and can't figure out the middle of a 47 inch measurement without running back to their desk for their calculator.

And this is why there is income inequality. Its because there is employee inequality. At some point, the boss realizes he can hire 2 hardworking people, bump their pay to what they're worth, and get rid of 3 boneheads, saving the insurance benefits for the company and himself a lot of headaches.

I have to give my dad (RIP) due credit. When I was 16, he handed me a shovel before leaving for work one day and told me to dig a ditch 2 feet deep and 120 feet long to bury the house gutter drain pipe below grade down to the lake we lived on. When I tried to convince him to hire a small backhoe, he replied "In case that whole college education thing doesn't work out, I want you to have something to fall back on." Seriously, my plan B was going to be DIGGING DITCHES.

BEST MOTIVATIONAL SPEECH EVER.