Common Ground for Right and Left?

[wakproductions]

When I got out of the Army I started as a laborer on a carpentry crew for $3.50 an hour that was 35 cents over minimum.

If you have a work ethic you will rise to the highest level you are capable of. I still have contractors calling me for advice.

My peter Principle experience was trying to run my own carpentry company.

I am considered one of the best carpenters in NWI, by many. I am not a very good business man.

That is very commendable that you found a career of economic success as a carpenter!

Based on the Federal minimum wage history, I'm going to assume that $3.50/hr you made was sometime around 1980. Inflation adjusted, that's about $10.91 in 2019, which is in line with what many entry level jobs would pay today, maybe even a little under. I think retail stores like Target or Whole Foods are paying $12-15 - but those roles are unlikely to develop skills that translate into a long run career path. And maybe that's the problem. A lot of people starting out today get stuck where they are at. They spend all day in a role that's been optimized for a specialized task in the corporate hierarchy that doesn't offer much room for advancement.

Millennials today are earning 20% less real income than Baby Boomers were at the same age. They are not doing as well as Gen X. It's not surprising considering the US has lost so much of its manufacturing base to China. Many jobs have to compete with remote workers in India. At one of the small companies I previously worked, I was next in line to take over the whole IT development department if my boss quit his job, but that didn't work out because the owners of the business fired all the US staff and replaced us with people in India because it was cheaper for the company. That sort of thing didn't happen in 1980.

Consolidation of companies thanks to a lax FTC allowing mergers has also killed competition in the marketplace. Fewer companies means fewer jobs, higher prices, and lower wages. Many industries are now controlled by a few number of very large companies. It also stomps out people trying to start new businesses. Consider the power that Google has in the power of their algorithm - they can choose winners and losers of anyone selling a product over the internet.

There are still paths to personal financial success and some Millennials do really well, but the environment is a lot tougher these days. All of this has really hurt young people in a more collective sense, and unfortunately a lot of them think socialism is the answer. I actually think OP's eldest son sounded like he had moderate views on gun legislation compared to most on the left. But you can probably bet when it's time to vote in an election, issues like economics and the environment will win the day and he will support Democrat political candidates who coincidentally happen to be anti-gun. Maybe the way to find common ground with the left on gun rights is to also appeal to them on other issues by being sympathetic on the factors driving them to socialism to begin with. Show them why big, intrusive government programs are not the answer to fixing any of their problems.

 

[2A_Tom]

They have only one right just like me. Life.

It is their duty to extend it as long as they can. Or die.

 

[wakproductions]

They have only one right just like me. Life.

It is their duty to extend it as long as they can. Or die.

Then the transition will be easy for you when they elect a government that seizes right to own firearms, right to free speech, right to due process...

 

[2A_Tom]

Those are all covered by the right to life.

 

[SarahG]

That is very commendable that you found a career of economic success as a carpenter!

Based on the Federal minimum wage history, I'm going to assume that $3.50/hr you made was sometime around 1980. Inflation adjusted, that's about $10.91 in 2019, which is in line with what many entry level jobs would pay today, maybe even a little under. I think retail stores like Target or Whole Foods are paying $12-15 - but those roles are unlikely to develop skills that translate into a long run career path. And maybe that's the problem. A lot of people starting out today get stuck where they are at. They spend all day in a role that's been optimized for a specialized task in the corporate hierarchy that doesn't offer much room for advancement.

Millennials today are earning 20% less real income than Baby Boomers were at the same age. They are not doing as well as Gen X. It's not surprising considering the US has lost so much of its manufacturing base to China. Many jobs have to compete with remote workers in India. At one of the small companies I previously worked, I was next in line to take over the whole IT development department if my boss quit his job, but that didn't work out because the owners of the business fired all the US staff and replaced us with people in India because it was cheaper for the company. That sort of thing didn't happen in 1980.

Consolidation of companies thanks to a lax FTC allowing mergers has also killed competition in the marketplace. Fewer companies means fewer jobs, higher prices, and lower wages. Many industries are now controlled by a few number of very large companies. It also stomps out people trying to start new businesses. Consider the power that Google has in the power of their algorithm - they can choose winners and losers of anyone selling a product over the internet.

There are still paths to personal financial success and some Millennials do really well, but the environment is a lot tougher these days. All of this has really hurt young people in a more collective sense, and unfortunately a lot of them think socialism is the answer. I actually think OP's eldest son sounded like he had moderate views on gun legislation compared to most on the left. But you can probably bet when it's time to vote in an election, issues like economics and the environment will win the day and he will support Democrat political candidates who coincidentally happen to be anti-gun. Maybe the way to find common ground with the left on gun rights is to also appeal to them on other issues by being sympathetic on the factors driving them to socialism to begin with. Show them why big, intrusive government programs are not the answer to fixing any of their problems.

This is the key I think. The image of anyone who is in opposition to the Democrats is not a good one, and sadly that's often for good reason. How can we expect someone to want to have a respectful conversation with a guy who runs around with a shirt that says something like "I lubricate my AR-15 with liberal tears"? This is the image we're fighting against as gun owners. I have friends who are very anti-gun and want full confiscation. These same people have never been exposed to firearms apart from maybe shooting a .22 at Scout camp. They would greatly benefit from at least increasing their knowledge about how guns function and how "assault weapons" is a ridiculous term, but this can't be done if they're not willing to talk to us.

I rarely get on my soapbox, but when I do this is normally what advice I have to give:

Start off by talking about things that aren't guns. You both like Thai food and have been hiking out West? Great, now you have something in common. You're more likely to be seen as an individual and not just a walking advertisement for Fox News if you can talk about other things you have in common. Listen to what they have to say about guns, even if it's 100% idiotic and makes you want to bash in your own head. Sincerely thank them for taking the time to share their opinion with you. Calmly share your thoughts on guns and why you support the 2A so strongly. You could even bring up the racist roots of gun control. Let the subject simmer and don't expect to change their opinion immediately, then talk about some other things. Offer to take the person to the range and explain what you find the most fun about shooting. If you're a good representative of the 2A, you're more likely to change minds than if you are yelling about "that libtard" over there. I know you all know this, but sometimes I feel like it needs repeating.

As far as other socialist policies, you can talk about the case for lowering taxes as a means to help people out of poverty. Talk about how more competition in the healthcare industry would bring down prices for everyone, whereas getting the government more involved would result in less incentive for innovation and less creation of new medical treatments. I could go on for days, but you guys get the point I'm trying to make. Assume the best in people and help them to see another side. I used to hold many different ideas than I do now and wouldn't have ever changed them if I was only met with hostility and others thinking I was stupid.

 

[Trigger Time]

I honestly dont care to have a rational conversation about the 2nd amendment. It is what it is and if you dont like and respect it then suck my ****. Govt or citizen.

Im done apologizing or being humble about being a gun owner. Being a gun owner and carrying a gun means being as American as it gets.
If you are against others right to own and carry guns then you are against America. That's as plain and simple as it gets. If you are against America **** you.

Go start telling people you dont think they should have the right to free speech (like the dems do to the right already), and see how they react. This is how we should all react when people talk about regulating the 2nd

We need to stop p*ssy footing around the 2nd amendment issue with politicians too. Tell them straight up not to **** with it or else they are traitors and tyrants period. Theres no common sense gun legislation. Thats a made up term for slaves.

I do not support ANY gub laws or checks period. If you break the law using a gun then you should have the book thrown at you.
We need to stop being a country of wimps

 

[wakproductions]

This is the key I think. The image of anyone who is in opposition to the Democrats is not a good one, and sadly that's often for good reason. How can we expect someone to want to have a respectful conversation with a guy who runs around with a shirt that says something like "I lubricate my AR-15 with liberal tears"? This is the image we're fighting against as gun owners. I have friends who are very anti-gun and want full confiscation. These same people have never been exposed to firearms apart from maybe shooting a .22 at Scout camp. They would greatly benefit from at least increasing their knowledge about how guns function and how "assault weapons" is a ridiculous term, but this can't be done if they're not willing to talk to us.

I rarely get on my soapbox, but when I do this is normally what advice I have to give:

Start off by talking about things that aren't guns. You both like Thai food and have been hiking out West? Great, now you have something in common. You're more likely to be seen as an individual and not just a walking advertisement for Fox News if you can talk about other things you have in common. Listen to what they have to say about guns, even if it's 100% idiotic and makes you want to bash in your own head. Sincerely thank them for taking the time to share their opinion with you. Calmly share your thoughts on guns and why you support the 2A so strongly. You could even bring up the racist roots of gun control. Let the subject simmer and don't expect to change their opinion immediately, then talk about some other things. Offer to take the person to the range and explain what you find the most fun about shooting. If you're a good representative of the 2A, you're more likely to change minds than if you are yelling about "that libtard" over there. I know you all know this, but sometimes I feel like it needs repeating.

As far as other socialist policies, you can talk about the case for lowering taxes as a means to help people out of poverty. Talk about how more competition in the healthcare industry would bring down prices for everyone, whereas getting the government more involved would result in less incentive for innovation and less creation of new medical treatments. I could go on for days, but you guys get the point I'm trying to make. Assume the best in people and help them to see another side. I used to hold many different ideas than I do now and wouldn't have ever changed them if I was only met with hostility and others thinking I was stupid.

Very useful commentary here. I fully agree. Some of my friends from Chicago had very radical leftist views when I was first getting to know them, but over time we've had friendly political conversations where I've gotten them to, at the very least, have doubts about the efficacy of big government. They used to think everyone who supports individual gun rights was a right-wing homophobic racist, but I've shown them otherwise. Not sure if I've gotten them to dispel all the utopian promises of the Democratic party, but it shows progress can be made to nudge someone's beliefs away from the radical left fringe. If enough of us took that approach, it might make a difference for the long haul.

 

[Robert Richardson]

I honestly dont care to have a rational conversation about the 2nd amendment. It is what it is and if you dont like and respect it then suck my ****. Govt or citizen.

Im done apologizing or being humble about being a gun owner. Being a gun owner and carrying a gun means being as American as it gets.
If you are against others right to own and carry guns then you are against America. That's as plain and simple as it gets. If you are against America **** you.

Go start telling people you dont think they should have the right to free speech (like the dems do to the right already), and see how they react. This is how we should all react when people talk about regulating the 2nd

We need to stop p*ssy footing around the 2nd amendment issue with politicians too. Tell them straight up not to **** with it or else they are traitors and tyrants period. Theres no common sense gun legislation. Thats a made up term for slaves.

I do not support ANY gub laws or checks period. If you break the law using a gun then you should have the book thrown at you.
We need to stop being a country of wimps

Somebody rep this man!! I can't right now. It won't let me do it.

 

[2A_Tom]

Unpossible to rep the folk that contribute. I have to go to the classies and hit a bunch of them guys, NOT.

 

[HoughMade]

I honestly dont care to have a rational conversation about the 2nd amendment. It is what it is and if you dont like and respect it then suck my ****. Govt or citizen.

Im done apologizing or being humble about being a gun owner. Being a gun owner and carrying a gun means being as American as it gets.
If you are against others right to own and carry guns then you are against America. That's as plain and simple as it gets. If you are against America **** you.

Go start telling people you dont think they should have the right to free speech (like the dems do to the right already), and see how they react. This is how we should all react when people talk about regulating the 2nd

We need to stop p*ssy footing around the 2nd amendment issue with politicians too. Tell them straight up not to **** with it or else they are traitors and tyrants period. Theres no common sense gun legislation. Thats a made up term for slaves.

I do not support ANY gub laws or checks period. If you break the law using a gun then you should have the book thrown at you.
We need to stop being a country of wimps

That's all well and good, but your opinions, right as they are, do not determine the law.

If we can't even convince our own children of the importance of the 2d Amendment and self-defense in general, we are only a few years (or a couple of decades) away from losing it all.

Just saying "it is what it is" is not convincing. The Constitution has been changed several times. It can happen again unless the people, and new generations, keep it from happening. We NEED to be bale to make rational points about why the 2d Amendment is necessary TODAY. We should be able to make considered, calm, arguments that will convince others, or we will lose. It really is that simple.

Now, if we only care about our own lifetimes, we may run that clock out....but is that really all we care about?

 

[wakproductions]

If we can't even convince our own children of the importance of the 2d Amendment and self-defense in general, we are only a few years (or a couple of decades) away from losing it all.

I think gun owners greatly underestimate the psychological impact of mass shooting crazies on children. They are now doing active shooter drills for kids as young as kindergarten. These drills do nothing but terrify the children. They all innately know that the school is inadequately prepared to deal with that sort situation and they are all sitting ducks. They are too young to experience and understand the benefits of private firearm ownership, but are presented with frightening realities that make them feel vulnerable. Of course kids being raised today will have an aversion to 2A. It doesn't make sense in the context of their world.

 

[HoughMade]

I have 4 kids, 22, 20, 16 and 14. All believe firmly in gun rights. All believe in the inalienable right to self-defense. All understand why we have the 2nd Amendment.

All were home schooled.

But to make new converts, I believe we start with the right to self-defense and build on that. Heck, we can even use their distrust of a govt run by Donald Trump to work on them.

As for mass shootings, the focus needs to be on the evil/mental illness (you can have both) of the shooter.

 

[spencer rifle]

But to make new converts, I believe we start with the right to self-defense and build on that. Heck, we can even use their distrust of a govt run by Donald Trump to work on them.

Which brings to mind this article:
http://monsterhunternation.com/2016...who-are-suddenly-interested-in-gun-ownership/

 

[DadSmith]

I have 4 kids, 22, 20, 16 and 14. All believe firmly in gun rights. All believe in the inalienable right to self-defense. All understand why we have the 2nd Amendment.

All were home schooled.

But to make new converts, I believe we start with the right to self-defense and build on that. Heck, we can even use their distrust of a govt run by Donald Trump to work on them.

As for mass shootings, the focus needs to be on the evil/mental illness (you can have both) of the shooter.

That is a good idea.

"If you are so worried that Trump is going to turn the country into a Nazi Like dictatorship. Why would you want to confiscate AR15's and other similar weapons? How will you fight a tyrant government if you just have single shot firearms for hunting only?"

 

[Shadow01]

I think gun owners greatly underestimate the psychological impact of mass shooting crazies on children. They are now doing active shooter drills for kids as young as kindergarten. These drills do nothing but terrify the children. They all innately know that the school is inadequately prepared to deal with that sort situation and they are all sitting ducks. They are too young to experience and understand the benefits of private firearm ownership, but are presented with frightening realities that make them feel vulnerable. Of course kids being raised today will have an aversion to 2A. It doesn't make sense in the context of their world.

I felt the same way about the duck and cover drills. It didn’t lead to the elimination of all nuclear weapons.

 

[AJMD429]

1. Give him the book "Restricting Handguns - the Liberal Skeptics Speak Out"

new - https://www.amazon.com/Restricting-Handguns-Liberal-Skeptics-Speak/dp/0884270335
used - https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-lis...ap_used_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr=

2. Send him the link to Kates' (a liberal criminologist) article - "Guns and Public Health - epidemic of violence, or pandemic of propaganda...?

tell him to start with section XIII if he has a short attention span - https://guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html

3. After he's read all the above, refer him to the general GunCite website 'Journal Articles' section - https://guncite.com/journals/

4. Or if he's less academically-inclined, their 'General Articles' section - https://guncite.com/

He will see that being 'liberal' (what a misnomer these days) doesn't require an anti-gun attitude.

 

[Tombs]

There's no common ground to be found.

Either you believe the constitution is absolute or you do not believe in this country and its values. The constitution makes exceedingly clear that ANY regulation of ANY kind on arms is illegal and an act of treason.

Just "enforcing the laws we have already" is already a treasonous crime. That's not an acceptable stance, not of an individual who seeks to claim they are American.
You can always deal with the criminal by responding to the crime, and making it easier to have a faster response. That is lawful under the constitution.

Quite easy to make mass shootings a thing of the past. Outlaw no-gun-zones and bring back firearms and firearms safety training to school. And also bring back actual respect instilling punishment for schools.

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American.... [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." (Tench Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.)

The James Madison Research Library and Information Center