Cop abuses nurse for protecting patient and following the law

[jkaetz]

So this police officer is big enough and strong enough to arrest the nurse and stuff her into a police car, but her saying, "You can't draw the blood," is powerful enough to stop him? How could she physically stop him if he was determined?
I think the better action would be saying, "Drawing that blood is unreasonable search and seizure and assault. I will make a report and be a witness to those facts."

The officer was described as "going off;" an out of control cop is a shooty cop. If you're going to argue with a cop, it had better be in a court room.

He wanted to make an example of her so no one would stand up in the future. IMO it's blown up in his face.

 

[JAL]

In addition to his being a schoolyard bully, the part that is seemingly lost here is the patient (truck driver) was comatose. That triggered the alarm bells when I started reading the story. He cannot exercise choice in either consenting to a search of his blood or by refusing consent for said search without a search warrant. Absent a search warrant, consent is required. No ticket, no laundry. No warrant or consent, no search.

It would be the same thing if I were sound asleep on my living room couch and a police officer or sheriff deputy walked up to my open front door with just the screen door closed for a flow-through breeze. Then he enters my home and starts searching it without a warrant when there aren't any exigent circumstances (i.e. a probable victim screaming for help). Since I'm sound asleep, I can neither consent to the search, nor require him to first obtain a warrant. End result: he has no consent and therefore cannot lawfully search the premises. Even if he suspected I might be in need of medical attention, he cannot go any further than rendering aid. Unless something is in very plain view in my immediate vicinity while doing that, anything seized is inadmissible and anything derived from it is fruit of the forbidden tree. During 21 years commissioned service in the US Army, I had a few trips through the knife and fork school regarding reasonable suspicion, probable cause, and how to not get in trouble when authorizing searches (exact same process a tribunal would follow), or in conducting them, or in handling any evidence afterward, to include some of the relevant court precedents.

IMHO, that's where the cop screwed up by not getting a search warrant, and if he couldn't (no PC) he was simply SOL. The nurse was simply enforcing the principle that the patient could not make that choice, and she, lacking a power of attorney or equivalent power cannot make that choice on his behalf. If she had drawn the blood, she would possibly be liable for malpractice or a similar tort claim, having deliberately performed a procedure she knew she wasn't supposed to.

John

 

[HoughMade]

I would love to see the way he wrote this up.

 

[Kutnupe14]

If I'm understanding the situation correctly, there was no probable cause for the blood draw. In Indiana, as noted above, IC 9-30-7 applies if the driver was involved in a crash resulting in death or bodily injury. If there is no probable cause to suspect OWI, then the only grounds an Indiana officer would have to offer the test is under IC 9-30-7, which requires no probable cause. However, if no probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, then there is no support for a warrant.

The penalty for refusing a no-PC crash only chemical test is an infraction.

If there is PC, then the officer can get a warrant.

If there is no PC, and there is no consent, and thus no warrant, law enforcement just has to do without the blood draw. That is a feature, not a bug.

It was sometimes difficult to get troopers to understand that, when I was in that line of work.

Even if there WAS probable cause, you can't compel another person to draw the blood if they don't want to, sans an order from the court.

 

[Fargo]

I would love to see the way he wrote this up.

It is terrible how jaded I am and I'm not saying that it is the case but a thought just struck me as I was thinking about the explanation given by the police that the blood it was for purposes of proving that the burned up driver was not impaired.


If this really was an instance of one cop trying to help/protect another, it's actually kind of makes complete sense. If he pulls the blood knowing that he was doing so in an inadmissible fashion for prosecution, there is no way it can be used against the other police officer if it comes back hot. On the other hand, if clean, the patient still could admit it or use it for exoneration even if illegally pulled as only he has standing to suppress it.

I am not saying this was the case, but it does make me think.

 

[Fargo]

Even if there WAS probable cause, you can't compel another person to draw the blood if they don't want to, sans an order from the court.

IC 9-30-6-6g actually says you can force them in Sbi/death cases but as I said above I do not believe it is constitutional and nor does the US Supreme Court find by my reading of its decisions.

(g) A physician or a person trained in obtaining bodily substance samples and acting under the direction of or under a protocol prepared by a physician shall obtain a blood, urine, or other bodily substance sample if the following exist:
(1) A law enforcement officer requests that the sample be obtained.

(2) The law enforcement officer has certified in writing the following:
(A) That the officer has probable cause to believe the person from whom the sample is to be obtained has violated IC 9-30-5.

(B) That the person from whom the sample is to be obtained has been involved in a motor vehicle accident that resulted in the serious bodily injury or death of another.

(C) That the accident that caused the serious bodily injury or death of another occurred not more than three (3) hours before the time the sample is requested.


(3) Not more than the use of reasonable force is necessary to obtain the sample.

 

[actaeon277]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nurse-refuses-blood-test-unconscious-patient-gets-cuffed-103358251.html


On leave.

 

[T.Lex]

Maybe the guy is fed up with all the lawyers and red tape. He knows what he needs, he knows he'll get it eventually, he just wants it NOW.

 

[radonc73]

She was on the phone with the hospitals legal team who kept saying that the cop was wrong. She could have lost her job and charged with assault if she had drawn the blood. The cop was way out of line and the other cop went a long with it by allowing him to arrest and assault her. We always here how this is an isolated incident but the other cop sat there and didn't do ****, like the Laquan Mcdonald incident. If the "good "cops had stepped forward from the beginning it wouldn't have blown up in their faces. Instead they covered up for him and now are all rightly in deep ****.

 

[Alamo]

I would love to see the way he wrote this up.

From Actaeon's link:

Payne wrote in a police report that he grabbed Wubbels and took her outside to avoid causing a "scene" in the emergency room. He said his boss, a lieutenant whose actions also were being reviewed, told him to arrest Wubbels if she kept interfering.

Uh, yeah, he really avoided a scene when he lost his cool, raised his voice with "I've had enough of this" and loudly proclaiming "you're under arrest" two or three times while she cried and screamed. Yikes.

 

[IndyDave1776]

One wonders how this would have gone down for the wayward cop had the nurse had a husband/boyfriend, a father, a brother, an uncle, or an adult son lacking compunctions about extrajudicial justice.

 

[Trigger Time]

From Actaeon's link:



Uh, yeah, he really avoided a scene when he lost his cool, raised his voice with "I've had enough of this" and loudly proclaiming "you're under arrest" two or three times while she cried and screamed. Yikes.

Another case of a cop lying in his report and being found out by a video

 

[Trigger Time]

She was on the phone with the hospitals legal team who kept saying that the cop was wrong. She could have lost her job and charged with assault if she had drawn the blood. The cop was way out of line and the other cop went a long with it by allowing him to arrest and assault her. We always here how this is an isolated incident but the other cop sat there and didn't do ****, like the Laquan Mcdonald incident. If the "good "cops had stepped forward from the beginning it wouldn't have blown up in their faces. Instead they covered up for him and now are all rightly in deep ****.

Exactly what I said earlier. It's sad and a damn shame. That cop should be reprimanded at least. If you see a brother in arms breaking the law and you're a cop or a soldier you don't just stand there with your thumb up your Ass.
Usually you see medical professionals and cops getting along nicely, hell many get married or date. This cop took a **** where he eats in my opinion. I hope he moves onto other employment the dudes clearly burnt out and thinks he's the law. I mean seriously all for what? People were on the way down to sort it out. No place for ego maniacs

 

[Doug]

One wonders how this would have gone down for the wayward cop had the nurse had a husband/boyfriend, a father, a brother, an uncle, or an adult son lacking compunctions about extrajudicial justice.

Unfortunately, probably an officer involved shooting. When you're facing an irrational person with a gun who is surrounded by others with guns who appear to be in agreement with the irrational actions that person is doing, you'd better comply and de-escalate, unless you really are bullet-proof.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Unfortunately, probably an officer involved shooting. When you're facing an irrational person with a gun who is surrounded by others with guns who appear to be in agreement with the irrational actions that person is doing, you'd better comply and de-escalate, unless you really are bullet-proof.

Keep in mind that none of these people would have known until after the fact when they would have hunted him down on their terms.

 

[churchmouse]

I finally watched the video on FB.
My hair stood straight up. I am afraid my time as a free man would be limited had that dick grabbed my spouse and drug her off. At the risk of crossing any lines I can not say exactly what I would do but it would not be pretty. Him being on leave is not even close to what needs to happen here.
Regardless of who he is (or thinks he is) this is a gross misuse of authority and needs to be addressed.

I need to calm down.

 

[churchmouse]

He wanted to make an example of her so no one would stand up in the future. IMO it's blown up in his face.

As it should have. That he was not stopped by the others in the room is a sad statement.

 

[Trigger Time]

I finally watched the video on FB.
My hair stood straight up. I am afraid my time as a free man would be limited had that dick grabbed my spouse and drug her off. At the risk of crossing any lines I can not say exactly what I would do but it would not be pretty. Him being on leave is not even close to what needs to happen here.
Regardless of who he is (or thinks he is) this is a gross misuse of authority and needs to be addressed.

I need to calm down.

My thoughts on this too.
I'd hope I would have the peace of mind to just stay calm because i would be thinking if my future monetary victory. Since that's the only way you can get back at a bad cop legally. Even if they're grossly in the wrong like he was if you attempt to fight them then many of his colleagues are gonna look at you as the bad guy and not him and while I could most likely handle my own with mr roid rage the others would then be out for blood and if you didn't get shot they'd beat your ass for sure. Id prefer to spend my money pissing out of my junk rather than a bag the rest of my life. Just think about the money and it will hurt less. The more they do to you the more you get paid.
Yeah I wish it was like the movies where the bad cop takes off his badge and says not a cop now, but we know that will never happen. Wimps that pick on women don't fight fair, that's why they pick on women or pull out the badge to be a dick.
I wish the laws would change so that individual cops had to pay out of their own pockets but it won't.

 

[churchmouse]

My thoughts on this too.
I'd hope I would have the peace of mind to just stay calm because i would be thinking if my future monetary victory. Since that's the only way you can get back at a bad cop legally. Even if they're grossly in the wrong like he was if you attempt to fight them then many of his colleagues are gonna look at you as the bad guy and not him and while I could most likely handle my own with mr roid rage the others would then be out for blood and if you didn't get shot they'd beat your ass for sure. Id prefer to spend my money pissing out of my junk rather than a bag the rest of my life. Just think about the money and it will hurt less. The more they do to you the more you get paid.
Yeah I wish it was like the movies where the bad cop takes off his badge and says not a cop now, but we know that will never happen. Wimps that pick on women don't fight fair, that's why they pick on women or pull out the badge to be a dick.
I wish the laws would change so that individual cops had to pay out of their own pockets but it won't.

Question...If you or I did not get our way and grabbed her up like that where would you or I be right now.

Answer.....not typing out a post on Ingo for sure.

You do not man handle a woman in that way especially if she is in the right....and she was. He had to know this.

I am put back in the day when we were involve in racing. Spouse went with me to a race in Ohio. She had all of her proper credentials displayed and easy to see. We were going through the pit gate and she was single file behind me. I was motioned through and when she followed the gate douche grabbed her arm and spun her around giving her a ration of **** about how she had her creds displayed. Same as mine. He had her arm in grip when I picked his ass up in a rear choke hold until he let her go. He was not pleased but was in fact lucky he was released and still able to breath. The spouse kept me at bay. Other team members pushed him back until we left.
You do not man handle a woman. If she is a Perp then yes but not in the video situation. I am amazed that was allowed to continue.

 

[Trigger Time]

Question...If you or I did not get our way and grabbed her up like that where would you or I be right now.

Answer.....not typing out a post on Ingo for sure.

You do not man handle a woman in that way especially if she is in the right....and she was. He had to know this.

I am put back in the day when we were involve in racing. Spouse went with me to a race in Ohio. She had all of her proper credentials displayed and easy to see. We were going through the pit gate and she was single file behind me. I was motioned through and when she followed the gate douche grabbed her arm and spun her around giving her a ration of **** about how she had her creds displayed. Same as mine. He had her arm in grip when I picked his ass up in a rear choke hold until he let her go. He was not pleased but was in fact lucky he was released and still able to breath. The spouse kept me at bay. Other team members pushed him back until we left.
You do not man handle a woman. If she is a Perp then yes but not in the video situation. I am amazed that was allowed to continue.

Yep agreed. If it was my wife I probably would be in jail in the very least. Id try not to but being there firsthand Is different once the switch gets flipped.
And you're right, you and I would be in jail no doubt about it.i hope the community rallies and he is fired.
She hurt his ego. Good cops don't have a chip on their shoulder.
I was always told, don't **** with servers, stuardesses, or nurses.

And yes it is very very ****ed up That no one stopped him. People are afraid of the police. When average people who don't even have criminal records are afraid of interacting with the police then I'd say it's more than just an image problem.