Cop abuses nurse for protecting patient and following the law

[Expat]

The officer is a forensic phlebotomist.
He wanted to draw blood.
The nurse said you can't do that without a warrant. She did not interfere with his drawing the blood.
The officer arrested her for telling him no.

Her crime is contempt of cop.

Uppity women always giving their opinions...

 

[Doug]

Dang! Are looking for the job of target holder during ladies night at the range?

Apply purple, in necessary.

 

[rhino]

Not even close to first. 34 results return when searched on, of which the earliest reachable one is this 2009 entry: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-weapon-gun-control-advocates.html#post233541

Granted this is text copied in from another source.

Earliest reachable INGOer use appears to be JBLee: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-m1600-22-plastic-armyman-rifle-its-cool.html

Question answered!

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Regards,

Doug

PS - For the record, I believe Det Payne acted inappropriately and Ms. Wubbels was in the right, I just don't like the emotional narrative put on this story.

I hear ya on the not arguing with an officer thing but have you ever been arrested ?

If you're a sucker that believes in God , country and Mom , getting manhandled and arrested while being in the right will most certainly have an emotional component to it .

I hope her attorney rapes the town for her .

 

[Fargo]

Give me some time. I have to find something to bill this to.

[edited to add]

Here it is:

Chavez v. Martinez, 538 U.S. 760, 772–73 (2003).

PM the address to send the bill, or we can e-mail it.

Thanks much! Please bill to:

Freeman Law
Couthouse Bathroom 1A
Lafayette IN

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

She argued by the side of the road, what did she (we) expect?.

I think that your reasoning is a little askew here.

She wasn't arguing. She was abiding by a policy that both the hospital and police had previously agreed was correct and proper.

Say you're walking across a parking lot to go into the mall, and an officer waves you over and orders you to open the car in front of him. You say "I'm sorry officer, but that's not my car". Then, after "arguing by the side of the road", the officer grabs you and wrestles you to his cruiser and slaps the cuffs on you?

Would you think that you had some culpability in your arrest?

 

[Bill of Rights]

...

What really bothers me though is the media (and Ms. Wubbel's) perception that hospital policy would alone dictate how things must go. I get so very tired of people (I mean sheeple) believing that just because the BLANK says we must do something a certain way that we fall in line and do so. Take for example how many people allow themselves to be wheeled out of the hospital just because it is "hospital policy." What really makes hospital policy so damned important that we must override common sense in many cases? Nothing. Yet we as sheep (or rather lemmings) just fall in line and follow one another off the cliff of blind obedience. I think this is what bothers me the most - blind obedience.

That Ms. Wubbel's may have also been legally correct is important, but even agreeing that she was in the right it wasn't very violent in my opinion.

With respect, Doug, would it have gone better for her to try to tell the police officer what the law was? She was citing some authority to support her position, and I don't know that she thought this out in these terms, but choosing policy over law was the one the officer couldn't automatically refute or ignore (she thought.)

Watching the video she made it worse. For all the LEO's here tell us, if you can, what percentage of arrests actually go smoother than hers? Maybe if you're doing white collar crimes? Argue your point with the LEO, make your point as succinctly as possible, then prepare to be arrested. It isn't rocket science. You make your legal point in a court of law where the scales are balanced, not on the roadside where the win will always go to the LEO.

Once it was obvious he was making an unlawful and improper arrest, I suppose you can argue that she had a duty to resist it. Doesn't mean she isn't going to get roughed up or worse, but the defense of liberty is the essence of "all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

In this particular case it appears that Detective Payne was acting out of concern for a fellow officer, the patient from whom he wanted the blood draw. It is my understanding that a second party had been operating illegally and died in the accident. Detective Payne, knowing how civil proceedings could go, had the foresight to understand that solid proof could be extremely beneficial to the unconscious victim from whom he wanted blood so that later it could be proved that the victim was in no way impaired. The family of the dead driver could sue the unconscious victim for wrongful death, arguing that he was on the road impaired, and thus also contributed to the accident. A blood draw would have conclusively shut down that line of argument.

Let us also not skim over the fact that Detective Payne was allegedly following orders from his Lieutenant. It could have been his job on the line for failure to follow orders. Some LEO have the luxury of union representation, others no such protection.

I just don't see the emotional distress at her arrest. She argued by the side of the road, what did she (we) expect?

I had a patient kick me in the middle of the chest once. When I came up off the ground, the fact that he was in hand restraints was not a deterrent to me... I wanted to pound his face. Multiple times. The fact that there was hospital security there and kept us separated (all the while with him saying "go ahead! Go ahead!" daring me) is the only thing that gave me time to come to my senses. Maybe she was hoping he would realize he actually was in error... Not "oh ok, I understand now, bye bye", but "Y'know, you're right. How about this: I draw it, leave it with you and get the warrant, and you don't release it until I have that." or "OK. have you or can you draw blood for a medical reason? A doc's order takes a lot less time than a warrant, but we'll get both."

As to what she expected... I dunno.. maybe for the officer of the law to follow it?

I drive elderly and disabled people for a living. In a hypothetical situation I may at some future point have an interaction with a LEO who is demanding information about one of my clients that I may (due to the situation) refuse to answer (for whatever reason.) I fully expect one (1) of two (2) possible outcomes; #1) the LEO accepts my reason for not cooperating, or #2) the LEO does not accept my reasoning and arrests me. There is NO 3rd option, and the ball isn't in my court, it is in the LEO's. Once he/she says I'm under arrest I'll respectfully state my refusal to speak at all without an attorney. My first phone call will be to work telling them to call America Bonding Company and get my butt out of jail, and while they're at it send their attorney down here pronto to speak with me. That's it - simple. No muss, no fuss. I'll be an easy arrest. Then IF I have to I'll get my own attorney and sue someone, but I won't win the argument at the side of the road.

And just thinking about it, how many times has nurse Wubbel's witnessed an arrest? I'm certain they're not that uncommon in the ER. How many times has she witnessed someone explain how they weren't breaking the law and the LEO just says, "Oh. Ok, I understand now. Mea culpa. I'm just walking away. Bye bye..." She certainly had to be aware of what was coming.

Regards,

Doug

PS - For the record, I believe Det Payne acted inappropriately and Ms. Wubbels was in the right, I just don't like the emotional narrative put on this story.

She's seen arrests in the ED for sure, but those are typically, at least the ones I've seen, very low key. The officer has sat with the arrestee for a long time. They might or might not have talked. The "fire" is gone from the interaction, and all that's left is the "*sigh* Guess I'm going to jail now." In her case, the "fire" was still there, as his misdeed was happening right that moment. She also had probably never felt the inside of a set of handcuffs in her life, and she was scared less. I can't wholly blame her for her response, esp given that she'd done nothing wrong.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Dr.Midnight]

Thanks much! Please bill to:

Freeman Law
Couthouse Bathroom 1A
Lafayette IN

 

[actaeon277]

Don't resist on the side of the road.
There's kinda two different "don't resist".

1. What you're doing is wrong. I do not consent. But I'm going to remain calm and be a witness in court.
2. Physically stop cop. Or at least attempt to.


Seems she was going with option 1.

 

[atticachert]

he needs fired and his ass kicked with out a doubt

 

[SMiller]

he needs fired and his ass kicked with out a doubt

Yep yep

 

[Libertarian01]

Well...! I guess I am the mean, evil b*****d of INGO this week! That's OK, I have been alone on my island in my bunker before on other topics with other groups.

To everyone on here, I AGREE 100% that what she was doing was legal (from what I have read) AND that he was 100% WRONG from a legal perspective (again, from what I have read.) No argument, no disagreement.

BUT I just don't see everyone (not INGO so much but MSM) getting all upset over this. I guess to me you can be 100% legally right and STILL be arrested if the LEO decides you are breaking the law somehow. This is why God made attorneys to win the fight later in a court of law, not at the roadside.

Hospital/company policy is absolutely no defense for immediate arrest. (See Enron and Arthur Anderson for further details.) That can come up later, in court. How many times have we said you do not win the argument at the side of the road?

When I have gone to Tulsa for the HUGE gun show I always carry a copy of federal law 18 US Code S926.A to show any possible LE encounter that I am legal and State or local laws do not apply. With that in mind I am fully aware that I might be arrested anyway due to a well meaning officers unwillingness to believe my printed copy of Federal law overriding theirs. Will I be upset? Of course I will. Will I be happy that my attorney will get me some good money for my illegal detention in a couple of years? Of course I will. That I am legal does not mean I cannot be arrested by an arrogant LEO or a well meaning but uninformed LEO. It only means I will probably win - later.

I do sympathize with her, but I also sympathize with the detective who WAS (ALLEGEDLY) ORDERED TO ARREST HER! What if he hadn't followed orders and a day or two later been fired? No cameras there. No emotional outburst.

In the end I guess there are two (2) differences between me and other folks on this event:

#1) I agree that she was wrongfully arrested.
#2) Big deal. She has the ability to seek legal council and get justice along with compelling local LE to correct their policy and training.

Respectfully,

Doug

 

[Kutnupe14]

Well...! I guess I am the mean, evil b*****d of INGO this week! That's OK, I have been alone on my island in my bunker before on other topics with other groups.

To everyone on here, I AGREE 100% that what she was doing was legal (from what I have read) AND that he was 100% WRONG from a legal perspective (again, from what I have read.) No argument, no disagreement.

BUT I just don't see everyone (not INGO so much but MSM) getting all upset over this. I guess to me you can be 100% legally right and STILL be arrested if the LEO decides you are breaking the law somehow. This is why God made attorneys to win the fight later in a court of law, not at the roadside.

Hospital/company policy is absolutely no defense for immediate arrest. (See Enron and Arthur Anderson for further details.) That can come up later, in court. How many times have we said you do not win the argument at the side of the road?

When I have gone to Tulsa for the HUGE gun show I always carry a copy of federal law 18 US Code S926.A to show any possible LE encounter that I am legal and State or local laws do not apply. With that in mind I am fully aware that I might be arrested anyway due to a well meaning officers unwillingness to believe my printed copy of Federal law overriding theirs. Will I be upset? Of course I will. Will I be happy that my attorney will get me some good money for my illegal detention in a couple of years? Of course I will. That I am legal does not mean I cannot be arrested by an arrogant LEO or a well meaning but uninformed LEO. It only means I will probably win - later.

I do sympathize with her, but I also sympathize with the detective who WAS (ALLEGEDLY) ORDERED TO ARREST HER! What if he hadn't followed orders and a day or two later been fired? No cameras there. No emotional outburst.

In the end I guess there are two (2) differences between me and other folks on this event:

#1) I agree that she was wrongfully arrested.
#2) Big deal. She has the ability to seek legal council and get justice along with compelling local LE to correct their policy and training.

Respectfully,

Doug

Lol, you're being consistent. Typically, every on INGO says to comply and pursue it later in court. This instance, for some reason, seems to be different.

 

[churchmouse]

Well...! I guess I am the mean, evil b*****d of INGO this week! That's OK, I have been alone on my island in my bunker before on other topics with other groups.

To everyone on here, I AGREE 100% that what she was doing was legal (from what I have read) AND that he was 100% WRONG from a legal perspective (again, from what I have read.) No argument, no disagreement.

BUT I just don't see everyone (not INGO so much but MSM) getting all upset over this. I guess to me you can be 100% legally right and STILL be arrested if the LEO decides you are breaking the law somehow. This is why God made attorneys to win the fight later in a court of law, not at the roadside.

Hospital/company policy is absolutely no defense for immediate arrest. (See Enron and Arthur Anderson for further details.) That can come up later, in court. How many times have we said you do not win the argument at the side of the road?

When I have gone to Tulsa for the HUGE gun show I always carry a copy of federal law 18 US Code S926.A to show any possible LE encounter that I am legal and State or local laws do not apply. With that in mind I am fully aware that I might be arrested anyway due to a well meaning officers unwillingness to believe my printed copy of Federal law overriding theirs. Will I be upset? Of course I will. Will I be happy that my attorney will get me some good money for my illegal detention in a couple of years? Of course I will. That I am legal does not mean I cannot be arrested by an arrogant LEO or a well meaning but uninformed LEO. It only means I will probably win - later.

I do sympathize with her, but I also sympathize with the detective who WAS (ALLEGEDLY) ORDERED TO ARREST HER! What if he hadn't followed orders and a day or two later been fired? No cameras there. No emotional outburst.

In the end I guess there are two (2) differences between me and other folks on this event:

#1) I agree that she was wrongfully arrested.
#2) Big deal. She has the ability to seek legal council and get justice along with compelling local LE to correct their policy and training.

Respectfully,

Doug

Doug,
I hope you did not see my response as a knock on you or your opinion.
Was not my intention.

 

[myhightechsec]

Lol, you're being consistent. Typically, every on INGO says to comply and pursue it later in court. This instance, for some reason, seems to be different.

Perhaps because the situation is different?

Being pulled over in your car for running a red light or doing 80 in a 50 mph zone is not the same as being a professional nurse in a hospital protecting a patient's Constitutional rights.

Life does not require "consistency" under differing circumstances.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Hospital/company policy is absolutely no defense for immediate arrest.

I think that's been shown to be obvious, but it is a valid reason to decline to do the illegal thing that the officer was attempting to make her do.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Lol, you're being consistent. Typically, every on INGO says to comply and pursue it later in court. This instance, for some reason, seems to be different.

The difference, as I see it, is that she was behaving in a professional manner, right up until he started to make the arrest. That action scared the hell out of her, and not gonna lie, I'd probably not handle it well, either, in her place. I obey most laws. Those I do not typically will cost me money, but not jail time. The very idea of those steel doors closing and being unable to leave scares me (and her, from the sound of it) on an atavistic level. I'd wager I'm far from alone in that.

What's the quote, "Once the war starts, a battle plan is just a guess in a party dress.", or something similar. You can plan your whole life what you're gonna say and what you're gonna do... but when you're in the middle of the situation, what you remember to do or say is anyone's guess.

As to the detective who was ordered to arrest her... Can a merit officer be terminated for disobeying an unlawful order? Is the Lt. allowed to discipline an officer for disobeying an order to disarm an entire neighborhood, house to house? What would you, Kut, have done had your Lt. or Captain given you an order like that: "Go into that neighborhood and violate their civil rights. Heh heh."

I sincerely hope that you wold tell him not only to pound sand but would offer to pound it somewhere special for him

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Kutnupe14]

The difference, as I see it, is that she was behaving in a professional manner, right up until he started to make the arrest. That action scared the hell out of her, and not gonna lie, I'd probably not handle it well, either, in her place. I obey most laws. Those I do not typically will cost me money, but not jail time. The very idea of those steel doors closing and being unable to leave scares me (and her, from the sound of it) on an atavistic level. I'd wager I'm far from alone in that.

What's the quote, "Once the war starts, a battle plan is just a guess in a party dress.", or something similar. You can plan your whole life what you're gonna say and what you're gonna do... but when you're in the middle of the situation, what you remember to do or say is anyone's guess.

As to the detective who was ordered to arrest her... Can a merit officer be terminated for disobeying an unlawful order? Is the Lt. allowed to discipline an officer for disobeying an order to disarm an entire neighborhood, house to house? What would you, Kut, have done had your Lt. or Captain given you an order like that: "Go into that neighborhood and violate their civil rights. Heh heh."

I sincerely hope that you wold tell him not only to pound sand but would offer to pound it somewhere special for him

Blessings,
Bill

I've had it done. I was told to arrest a guy burning a flag on a grill. I told my superior at the time, flat out "no" (I did explain why, obviously). I got written up over it, but the Chief agreed with me, so nothing happened.

 

[Libertarian01]

Doug,
I hope you did not see my response as a knock on you or your opinion.
Was not my intention.

Dude,

As far as I am concerned here we are ALL friends, and as friends will sometimes do we will disagree. I seem to be the odd man out on this one.

I think she should sue and I think she should win, but I am not as concerned with her minor, trivial violation when compared to Philando Castile. I am far more concerned about a man that will NEVER have his day in court versus a woman who will.

Regards,

Doug

PS - I'm almost never the harda**, so don't deprive me the opportunity to be the big, bad meanie from time to time.

 

[Alamo]

Detective Payne fired, Lt Tracy demoted.

SLC officer fired after arresting Utah nurse who refused to draw patient?s blood - The Salt Lake Tribune

Criminal investigation continues.