Crawfordsville Police stopped a robbery today!

[phylodog]

 

[TheJoker]

You know Revere's Riders is holding a basic pistol class on November 12th in Crawfordsville. It might be wise for the local LEOs to take advantage of their LEO discount to let ATM, 308JAKE and company teach them some basic marksmanship skills before REAL bank robbers find out banks in Crawfordsville are ripe for the picking!

 

[phylodog]

You know Revere's Riders is holding a basic pistol class on November 12th in Crawfordsville. It might be wise for the local LEOs to take advantage of their LEO discount to let ATM, 308JAKE and company teach them some basic marksmanship skills before REAL bank robbers find out banks in Crawfordsville are ripe for the picking!

You should apply for the job so you can be there to save the day.

 

[TheJoker]

You should apply for the job so you can be there to save the day.

No thanks. The drastic cut in salary would adversely effect my ability afford my hobbies, many of which support marksmanship and safety training of others.

 

[phylodog]

You should volunteer your time to go show them how its done then. Apparently they need a hero.

 

[Beowulf]

Oh, does it now?

Thanks for yet another post full of "who gives a ****" but this one has an icing of "you're full of ****" on top. Good job.

I get that this is a sensitive subject for you (and probably for all the LEOs on INGO), but they have done studies on this. Here's an article about one of them, done nearly 10 years ago:

https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/

On average, police shootings result in multiple shots fired, with a relatively low hit ratio (but, that is heavily mitigated by the fact that police are often engaging with suspects in low light situations, so a loss of accuracy in a stressful situation in the dark is definitely to be expected over a shooting a in a calm manner on a well lit firing range).

The bigger issue, as this study showed, was that as the number of officers on the scene increased, the average number of shots fired increased and the hit ratio goes down. Maybe it's a group panic dynamic or something else, but the more police (or I imagine this probably applies to most people really) involved in a shooting, the more likely you are to see high volume mag dumps that aren't particularly aimed well.

Regardless, to get offended by the implication that police tend to fire multiple shots in a situation and miss most of them, when that is exactly what the data shows, is a bit counter-productive. That doesn't mean they aren't well trained and it certainly doesn't mean your average keyboard warrior with a CCW would do anywhere near as well (in fact, I would image that for a CCW holder, when engaging in an armed confrontation, the tendency would be to keep shooting until either the threat is down or the gun is empty... something that seems to be borne out by the videos I've seen of civilians in those situations).

 

[TheJoker]

You should volunteer your time to go show them how its done then. Apparently they need a hero.

You are a bit contentious for a minor bipedal species. Maybe you should give up trolling for something more productive.

 

[phylodog]

Regardless, to get offended by the implication that police tend to fire multiple shots in a situation and miss most of them, when that is exactly what the data shows, is a bit counter-productive. That doesn't mean they aren't well trained and it certainly doesn't mean your average keyboard warrior with a CCW would do anywhere near as well (in fact, I would image that for a CCW holder, when engaging in an armed confrontation, the tendency would be to keep shooting until either the threat is down or the gun is empty... something that seems to be borne out by the videos I've seen of civilians in those situations).

I'm not the least but offended by reality. I'm well aware of it, have studied it and have spent 10 years working to improve the performance of officers involved in these situations. Having been there myself I also have an understanding of the reality of these situations.

What the statistics don't show is that officer involved shootings "typically result in a fusillade that empties entire magazines". What offends is people who assume that since they can shoot with zero pressure, zero adrenaline and no danger involved believe they can tout their "expertise", particularly when they aren't willing to put any skin in the game themselves. It's fun and easy to sit around and daydream about being the hero, it's something entirely different to step into the arena.

I'm all for reasonable discussions about the realities of these situations.

 

[phylodog]

You are a bit contentious for a minor bipedal species. Maybe you should give up trolling for something more productive.

And you are a bit pretentious, maybe you should give up attempting to project your professional opinion on subjects you obviously know precious little about.

 

[Route 45]

Well of course not. Where did I say that we would shoot someone who's not a threat??
Armed Ski masked people run out of stores all the time with no ill intent to hurt us or the people we are with...

How do you know that he's not on his way to Paoli to ski? And why do you hate open carriers?

 

[Route 45]

You are a bit contentious for a minor bipedal species. Maybe you should give up trolling for something more productive.

So if someone posts something you don't agree with, they are a troll?

I know a retired Carmel highway revenue agent that you would get along with.

 

[actaeon277]

guys

 

[singlesix]

Anyone know what movie was being filmed? Wonder if they caught the event on film, it would make on heck of a scene, no acting real reactions.

 

[Gaffer]

Anyone know what movie was being filmed? Wonder if they caught the event on film, it would make on heck of a scene, no acting real reactions.

Sheriff Without A Gun?? :>)

 

[Alamo]

This is not as bad as the rash of "Lets run a hostage-taking exercise in the hospital and not tell any of the staff" exercises that went on a few years ago, but it's a good runner-up.

 

[ATM]

It doesn't take a hero to figure out that if you shout at a person, they will instinctively turn toward you.

If you shoot at them for that, it doesn't really matter what they were holding, what they could have been holding, or even what you shouted at them, you just need to say you were in fear for your life because they were turning toward you in a threatening manner after you shouted at them.

It works on cops, too. Shout at them and they'll turn toward you just the same.

 

[actaeon277]

Maybe, before I film something like that, I might notify the police dept, and neighboring businesses/houses.


When my Legion Post practices firing blanks, we call the PD to let them know.

 

[WebSnyper]

Apparently some members of INGO need to form up a training company and become millionaires showing LE how it's done. Considering the apparently vast amount of experience shooting their handguns during life and death situations and their ability to maintain the same accuracy that they do during slow fire at 10 yards I don't see how some won't become filthy stinkin rich overnight.

I guess it would be a real shame to have perceptions skewed by experience and reality. I suppose that might make for a pretty boring forum. Feel free to lead the way in detailing your personal expertise and experience and I'll start writing up the proposal to transfer LE firearms training over the some of the members here.

I'd be happy to, have any specific questions? What would you like to know about? How crappy handgun bullets are at stopping people? The physiological phenomena which usually occur when the brain recognizes that death is likely?

I'll admit to getting testy about this stuff. It's basically the equivalent of my criticizing a Forumula 1 driver for crashing his car in a race when I've been able to drive to and from work for the past 20 years without so much as curbing my wheels.

I'm not the least but offended by reality. I'm well aware of it, have studied it and have spent 10 years working to improve the performance of officers involved in these situations. Having been there myself I also have an understanding of the reality of these situations.

What the statistics don't show is that officer involved shootings "typically result in a fusillade that empties entire magazines". What offends is people who assume that since they can shoot with zero pressure, zero adrenaline and no danger involved believe they can tout their "expertise", particularly when they aren't willing to put any skin in the game themselves. It's fun and easy to sit around and daydream about being the hero, it's something entirely different to step into the arena.

I'm all for reasonable discussions about the realities of these situations.

Never meant to offend you or other LEOs, but then the LEOs that are here on INGO, likely would have inflicted serious injury on the person in this situation (or even more likely may have refrained from doing so if appropriate). Honestly, seeing what you guys post about training, etc (especially you, given your role) made me really incredulous as to how the target fared so well on this situation.

I also never meant to imply that I would have done so much better, I was more genuinely shocked in this situation that the person did remain unhurt. My comment about Crawfordsville PD not letting this get out, was more about them not wanting to see people potentially run more often or "take their chances" running, or worse drawing a weapon, etc when confronted by a LEO.

Obviously LEOs are people and people make mistakes, miss their target, etc. I was honestly surprised given much of what I hear about other departments' training here on INGO that they did miss in this situation. I obviously don't know the facts (wasn't there) but kind of pictured the guy exiting, being yelled at and turning around and the LEO shooting and missing. Then the "criminal" probably needed to change his pants and dropped his toy gun and pulled off his mask.

And to be perfectly honest, I would want no part of being a LEO. I carry for one reason, to get me and mine out of a bad situation, when all else has failed. I'm not interested in purposely putting myself into these situations, given the risk and the reward ratio, etc. That may not reflect well, but it's honest. I respect what you guys do and the large majority who do it.

 

[churchmouse]

You are a bit contentious for a minor bipedal species. Maybe you should give up trolling for something more productive.

I will suggest that this line of thinking and responding stop.
I know Phylo and am well aware of his skill sets and abilities.
He is involved daily in bettering LEO in our fair city.

I would ask you both be nice and play well with each other now.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It doesn't take a hero to figure out that if you shout at a person, they will instinctively turn toward you.

If you shoot at them for that, it doesn't really matter what they were holding, what they could have been holding, or even what you shouted at them, you just need to say you were in fear for your life because they were turning toward you in a threatening manner after you shouted at them.

It works on cops, too. Shout at them and they'll turn toward you just the same.

Which is why it's smart to think about it now so you can preplan that if you have a gun in your hand you don't do that.

Seems like someone here has mentioned that many times before...