Damn CPS!!!! At it again!!

[Denny347]

I think you are misunderstanding my question.

Let's say we abolished it. What situations would arise that our existing legal system couldn't handle?

The big issue that I can see is placing children whose parents have been arrested or have died into new temporary or permanent homes. I am open to discussion of the best way to handle that.

But what else? What other functions must be replaced, that can't already be handled by the existing legal system?

I arrest you and you have a child with you and no one else is there. What should I do with the child? Do I just find someone to take it? Who takes the time to make sure the child is getting placed with actual family, that the child is being placed in a safe environment? I can tell you that we are not equipped to do that. We don't have enough people to answer the calls on the radio let alone pull an officer/officers to sit with the child, track down family, and vetting them.

 

[steveh_131]

It takes 6 months to go to court for a DUI... some kids don't have 6 months.

It's the same slow process that we use to handle other dangerous, violent criminals.

Would you advocate suspending due process for other violent criminals, because they might hurt someone else while waiting?

 

[steveh_131]

I arrest you and you have a child with you and no one else is there. What should I do with the child? Do I just find someone to take it? Who takes the time to make sure the child is getting placed with actual family, that the child is being placed in a safe environment? I can tell you that we are not equipped to do that. We don't have enough people to answer the calls on the radio let alone pull an officer/officers to sit with the child, track down family, and vetting them.

Could you pull some folks off of commuter-taxing duty and have them take care of some lost kids?

I'd be in favor of having more officers hired to handle legitimate and important issues like this.

 

[Denny347]

Could you pull some folks off of commuter-taxing duty and have them take care of some lost kids?

I'd be in favor of having more officers hired to handle legitimate and important issues like this.

That's ISP usually, we don't have many doing that unless it is grant funded OT. That is what I was getting at in my earlier posts, it is hard to be outside of the "machine" and make suggestions that are workable without knowing what the "machine" actually does. Perception in NOT always reality. People perceive we do things one way but in reality we do it totally different. We are hemorrhaging officers (retire, quit, fired, death) with ZERO replacements for 2 years and unlikely any more in the future. There is only so much we can do.

 

[steveh_131]

That's ISP usually, we don't have many doing that unless it is grant funded OT.

Then I'd be open to hiring some more.

Of course, the obvious first step to helping overworked police officers is ridding ourselves of this ridiculous drug war, but that is for a different thread.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I arrest you and you have a child with you and no one else is there. What should I do with the child? Do I just find someone to take it? Who takes the time to make sure the child is getting placed with actual family, that the child is being placed in a safe environment? I can tell you that we are not equipped to do that. We don't have enough people to answer the calls on the radio let alone pull an officer/officers to sit with the child, track down family, and vetting them.

I feel comfortable in saying that most of us don't have a problem with a system in place to care for displaced children. We simply don't want unaccountable self-styled demigods turned loose with authority which in practice gives every appearance of operating outside the constraints of due process with the power to arbitrarily decide to jack our kids. That is a long way from expecting you to take abused children home with you.

At the same time, if a crime has been committed, the violator should be arrested by a real police officer, hauled off to jail, and the children left in the care of a family member or, if unavailable, the care of an agency that exists solely for the purpose of caring for children and not hijacking them.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I don't know what the solution is either... but neglect, abuse etc are crimes and IMO warrant a police officer to make a judgement call that they might not be qualified enough to make on their own. In that case, I don't see anything wrong with having an entity that the police department can rely on to come out and make that call for them and then clean up the mess to allow the police officer to get back on his beat.

The system isn't perfect and with all positions of authority, if it goes unchecked it could potentially evolve into a tyrannical one. The problem I see with powers of position is that there isn't proper checks in place to dissuade the holder of the position from overstepping their boundaries.

Police officers can shoot up the wrong truck, politicians can get Americans killed overseas, the IRS and the Federal Reserve can steal your money, DNR can storm animal shelters like SWAT teams and nothing happens to them. They get slapped on the wrist or given free passes... and therefore their power expands and the uncross-able line moves.

Given the behavior of the so-called experts, I would have more confidence in a police officer who had become involved through proper due process seeing blood, bruises, credible accounts of other forms of abuse, or ribs sticking out arresting the guilty parties than CPS people deciding to hijack children because they damned well feel like it.

 

[lucky4034]

It's the same slow process that we use to handle other dangerous, violent criminals.

Would you advocate suspending due process for other violent criminals, because they might hurt someone else while waiting?

Thats a lot different then leaving a child unprotected and abused... or as Denny pointed out... alone while their parents are in jail.

 

[lucky4034]

Given the behavior of the so-called experts, I would have more confidence in a police officer who had become involved through proper due process seeing blood, bruises, credible accounts of other forms of abuse, or ribs sticking out arresting the guilty parties than CPS people deciding to hijack children because they damned well feel like it.

This is where checks need to be put in place to regulate the abuse of authority with ALL AGENCIES.

You can deputize CPS workers if you like and call them police officers... because a rose by any other name is still a rose. Again, I won't argue that CPS is not run properly; I will only bring up the fact that there seems to be a place in our society for a mechanism to handle these unfortunate situations.

Leaving control solely in the hands of parents that are unfit does not seem to be the answer...this isn't Utopia. And the police force as it stands is not built to deal with this. CPS is far from perfect... but as far as I can see, they are the chosen mechanism. Its not a perfect mechanism and it needs fixed, but there seems to be a validation for its existence...

...well, unless someone else can give me a better way of handling these cases. And please... be realistic. Don't tell me we need to teach parents to be better.

 

[steveh_131]

Thats a lot different then leaving a child unprotected and abused... or as Denny pointed out... alone while their parents are in jail.

You are mixing two different scenarios.

1. Child left alone. We're already discussing potential solutions to this.

2. Child being abused. There are already laws against this. Use them. If there is enough evidence of it to warrant an arrest, then perform the arrest and proceed with #1.

 

[lucky4034]

You are mixing two different scenarios.

1. Child left alone. We're already discussing potential solutions to this.

2. Child being abused. There are already laws against this. Use them. If there is enough evidence of it to warrant an arrest, then perform the arrest and proceed with #1.

Again... if you don't want to call it CPS, then call it whatever you want. 2ndly... who determines if the child is being abused or isn't living with basic necessities. You want police officers to make these determinations? Or do you want to hire "special police units" to make this determination?

A rose by any other name is still a rose.... CPS already is tasked with these duties. Why would you create a new agency/unit to do the same thing.

The problem is that the role of CPS needs to be defined and their authority and reach needs to be checked and when they screw up, they need to be held accountable.

This is no different than rogue police officers, shady politicians, fraudulent IRS agents etc....

 

[steveh_131]

Again... if you don't want to call it CPS, then call it whatever you want. 2ndly... who determines if the child is being abused or isn't living with basic necessities. You want police officers to make these determinations? Or do you want to hire "special police units" to make this determination?

A rose by any other name is still a rose.... CPS already is tasked with these duties. Why would you create a new agency/unit to do the same thing.

We already have police officers, with systems of accountability and restrictions of their authority. We should use it.

We don't need special units. If a child is being abused, make the case. Collect evidence. And issue an arrest warrant if the evidence supports it. Due process.

 

[lucky4034]

I'd like to know what officers are qualified to make these determinations? Surely you don't think that officers are better equipped to make this type of call than CPS workers?

And then I'd like to know how you monitor the kids afterwards and in the case that a parent works hard to get their kids back who is going to monitor the case and work with the parents?

And there is already due process... CPS is in these homes because due process. They don't just randomly show up at peoples homes.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Anyone working for CPS should have to be a parent for sure. Nothing worse than some asshat with no kids telling parents how wrong they are.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

But what else? What other functions must be replaced, that can't already be handled by the existing legal system?

Existing legal system?

Well, you can replace DCS with a system of a court appointing a DCSesque private prosecutor for CHINS and TPRs or GALs for emergencies (I assume that would have to be on call) but as I said you just created hundreds of mini-DCSes.

I think you can do it, but it will be inefficient and even more elephantine to manage.

 

[Mrwindow]

Wow!

 

[steveh_131]

Existing legal system?

Well, you can replace DCS with a system of a court appointing a DCSesque private prosecutor for CHINS and TPRs or GALs for emergencies (I assume that would have to be on call) but as I said you just created hundreds of mini-DCSes.

I think you can do it, but it will be inefficient and even more elephantine to manage.

We already have prosecutors to prosecute physical and sexual abuse by the usual methods. Officers and jails to contain the abusers. What's left? Someone to find a home for the kids whose parents are locked up?

Like I said, that may be a legitimate function. I'm not certain that a gigantic bloated agency is necessary.

Wow!

This is fascinating. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We already have prosecutors to prosecute physical and sexual abuse by the usual methods.

CHINS and TPRs are not criminal. So, to handle these civil matters you would fold DCS into the Prosecuting Attorney much like IV-D is now?

So, you want to abolish DCS and make it more powerful and give it fangs by giving its functions and authority over to the Prosecuting Attorney?

 

[steveh_131]

CHINS and TPRs are not criminal. So, to handle these civil matters you would fold DCS into the Prosecuting Attorney much like IV-D is now?

So, you want to abolish DCS and make it more powerful and give it fangs by giving its functions and authority over to the Prosecuting Attorney?

Could you supply some real world examples of CHINS and TPR's? I am not familiar with these acronyms.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Could you supply some real world examples of CHINS and TPR's? I am not familiar with these acronyms.

Cannibalistic
Humanoid
Inbread
Nanny
Statist

Toilet
Paper
Refiller