Difficult stages at local matches.

[Twangbanger]

...I've seen clubs on the brink of death, because they got in a vicious cycle of less help resulting in simpler stages...

-rvb

Why do you think the clubs failed to attract help?

I ask, because clubs are the lifeblood of the sport, and two of you on the "North" end seem to be saying it's a thing.

 

[Bosshoss]

Not sure but I think the first reshoot was intentional and the 2ed was not.

Maybe but no way to prove it.

 

[Grelber]

Why do you think the clubs failed to attract help?

I ask, because clubs are the lifeblood of the sport, and two of you on the "North" end seem to be saying it's a thing.

Human nature?

Help is occasionally sparse at Silver Creek, South Central, Owensboro KY, the only clubs I am familiar with except riley

 

[7920drew]

Human nature?

Help is occasionally sparse at Silver Creek, South Central, Owensboro KY, the only clubs I am familiar with except riley

We’re lucky to get 5 addition helpers at Wildcat set up. Makes it hard to get 6 interesting stages in the ground every match.

 

[Bosshoss]

I understand what everyone is saying but if someone is willing to set up a stage they can do it anyway they want as long as it's legal. When you I have the same 2,3 or 4 people come out and set stages up and someone wants to set up a stage up there self go for it.

Yes 100%.
When designing a stage make sure it is safe and legal. Always think of the RO and avoid trapping them or having them run 50 yards trying to keep up with faster people(especially when it is hot). Also remember the rules. I have pointed out several times more than 8 shots from one position and have been told "it's only a club match" and that was the solution instead of fixing the problem.
Try to remember the crowd that will be shooting the match. It is a SHOOTING MATCH and lots of the shooters are very serious competitors and some are just there to have some fun with friends and some are both.
I will say that if you set up a stage that is difficult and several people tell you before the match that shooters will complain and then they do complain don't take it personal and don't get defensive and learn from it and most important don't quit setting up stages.
I already said that I didn't think the drop turner stage was that difficult and I thought it was a fun stage.
A note to new stage designers when walking this stage before the match I mentioned to the stage designer that the drop turned was still available after it turned he looked at it and said no one would take that shot(maybe 3 to 4 inch wide side shot at target) there was 4 or 5 shooter standing there looking at it and I asked them who would take that shot and all of them raised their hand. A simple turn of the drop turner stand fixed it. Gamers gonna game

 

[Bosshoss]

NROI Instructor, the email chain was about a dropped mag rather than a forgotten target, but same difference.

As long as the competitor could retreat safely and the RO could safely get out of the way a reshoot is not actually warranted. If the shooters stopped and requested the reshoot because he was interfered with but no contact occurred it is a judgement call whether it should have been granted. I am assumming that is what happened. The correct call would have been “If you are finished, unload and show clear” At that point the COF would have ended and no reshoot would be allowed. Or at least the RM should have been called and it could be discussed.

If the RO could have went sideways and got out of the way, then after the shooter in a safe manner retreived the mag and proceded downrange, it would be no harm no foul. The key is “safely” if the shooter pointed his gun a the RO in the process, then a DQ would be warranted for sweeping. 5.5.2 says they can retreive their dropped mags, but it must be done safely.

The rule was not designed to give a shooter a free reshoot because of his error. It was designed to allow a reshoot if the RO physicially interferes with the competitor by contact. However, in the real world we know the RO is going to be standing there with "the deer in the headlights” stance and will not be able to move.
We cannot expect the shooter to go around us like we are a wall or stack of barrels.


​

Like I said before I stopped shooter because I lost control of the stage. I was very slightly downrange from the shooter, maybe 2 steps and 15 feet to the side. Problem was a unengaged target was behind me and he would have to go farther uprange to engage it. Could I have got uprange and out of the way? maybe but wasn't sure and I stopped him.

 

[colt22man]

Not sure but I think the first reshoot was intentional and the 2ed was not.

The 2nd reshoot was indeed intentional, deliberately concocted without remorse by a ruthless belligerent scoundrel

 

[rhino]

Why do you think the clubs failed to attract help?

I ask, because clubs are the lifeblood of the sport, and two of you on the "North" end seem to be saying it's a thing.

I think some of the other old timers will concur with me, but it happens to every club sooner or later. At some clubs it, goes in cycles. People get interested in the sport, then they get really, really interested and they want to help a lot. Then life happens and interest wanes, which can be compounded by the reality that the same guys are doing it for a given period of time. Once they are done (at least for a while), it sometimes takes a while to replace them.

At some clubs (two with whom I have direct experience), the match director and his behavior were a direct reason why help was sparse. Personality can either be a boon or bane to a shooting club.

At my first club (Coal Creek in Veedersburg), getting enough help was an ongoing challenge. To accommodate that reality, we had a club meeting in January to plan the season. The president/match director would start at March and work his way to November asking for three volunteers to design/select stages, set them up, and be the RO for their stage. That person was then responsible for acquiring help from other members as needed. If three people did not volunteer, the match was cancelled. The results wer that no one did any more than they could manage and we only had a match if people volunteered.

I'm not sure how that would work today since the culture of USPSA is so different now, but it might be worth a try for clubs that are struggling to get help and who have the same helpers doing it every time.

 

[Bosshoss]

Lots of good discussion
Just want to make a clarification I was not saying make the club match stages easier I was just saying making them too difficult can discourage new or newer shooters. Most of the shooters in this thread have been doing this awhile and we sometimes forget what it is like to step to the line and do something in front of a crowd that we have never done before.
Doing a new shooters meeting years ago and I told the new shooters that pepper poppers and steel must fall to score. A shooter raised his hand and asked "what is a pepper popper?" I always remember that try too not take to much for granted.
The matches I shoot at have excellent stages and we are blessed to have as many good clubs to shoot at as we do I don't think anyone is doing it "wrong".

Seriously if you are a newer shooter volunteer to setup or design a stage. I guarantee that you will learn more about stage breakdown and shooting USPSA than shooting matches for months.
My offer still stands to help you setup a stage that you design at Silver Creek or South Central.

 

[rvb]

Why do you think the clubs failed to attract help?

I ask, because clubs are the lifeblood of the sport, and two of you on the "North" end seem to be saying it's a thing.

I've not just seen it here, I've seen it other places I've lived also.

potential causes I've seen, off the top of my head:

1) Personality Issues/conflicts

2) "local" pool of workers gets burned out; not a big enough local pool to get additional help from

3) MDs not willing to ask for help

4) consumer culture (aka "I just want to pay $20 and shoot")

5) designers/MDs who get tired of being nit-picked to death. As Longbeard mentioned, new designers (and MDs) have a learning curve. It takes thick skin to keep volunteering when you're only told you suck. *Constructive* criticism goes a long way to growing new designers. Instead of "This stage is illegal, WTF?! This is crap! Wait til I share this on Doodie!" .... try "Next time, so you know, you're not supposed to xyz... but hey, it's a lot of fun regardless, thanks for the hard work!" IMO, save the nit picking for the LII/IIIs. It's a club match. Things get over-looked in the mad scramble to get the match started on time. let the nits go and have fun. Mistakes happen; I've sure made a couple lately, but fortunately for me the shooters didn't make a big stink over them.

I consider myself extremely fortunate that I have a group of guys who help get 50% of the match up before Sunday morning, where my only involvement is to spend 5 min on each stage during registration to enter it into Practiscore and give it a look it over for safety issues, shoot-throughs, obscure rule issues, etc. I might ask them to tweak something, but they've gotten good enough with the rules and construction they don't really need me. That just leaves me two stages to design + picking a classifier. I'm working on a couple more helpers to hopefully help take some of the burden off my regulars (who have come setup even when they can't be there to shoot!). We had two new stage designers at our last match and they did an awesome job.

-rvb

 

[Bosshoss]

I think some of the other old timers will concur with me, but it happens to every club sooner or later. At some clubs it, goes in cycles. People get interested in the sport, then they get really, really interested and they want to help a lot. Then life happens and interest wanes, which can be compounded by the reality that the same guys are doing it for a given period of time. Once they are done (at least for a while), it sometimes takes a while to replace them.

At some clubs (two with whom I have direct experience), the match director and his behavior were a direct reason why help was sparse. Personality can either be a boon or bane to a shooting club.

At my first club (Coal Creek in Veedersburg), getting enough help was an ongoing challenge. To accommodate that reality, we had a club meeting in January to plan the season. The president/match director would start at March and work his way to November asking for three volunteers to design/select stages, set them up, and be the RO for their stage. That person was then responsible for acquiring help from other members as needed. If three people did not volunteer, the match was cancelled. The results wer that no one did any more than they could manage and we only had a match if people volunteered.

I'm not sure how that would work today since the culture of USPSA is so different now, but it might be worth a try for clubs that are struggling to get help and who have the same helpers doing it every time.

Joe that is sort of how I did Deer Creek years ago. I asked for volunteers at the shooters meeting to set up a stage at next months match. I told the shooters that if 2 people volunteered we would have 2 stages if 4 volunteered 4 stages. If no one volunteered no match! Sometimes it took some prodding but it always worked. I always set up the classifier because of the measuring.
The volunteers showed up and set the stages day of the match and I proofed them to make sure legal and safe and then the RO's shot the match. When we were done then the shooters started.
It worked well at that time and I kept an eye on the guys setting up and if I had someone setup 3 months in a row I would make them take a month or two off so they didn't get burned out.
We usually started on time or close and if we were behind and someone complained I asked them why they weren't helping the RO's shoot thru? That usually solved that problem.
RO's then just RO'ed the stage they designed. RO's got to shoot first and then just hang out and RO one stage. There were advantages and disadvantages to this way but it worked.
Don't know if that kind of scenario would work today???

 

[downrange72]

Anyone who contributes to setting up a match in any capacity gets my support. It's a LOT of work. If there are new people (like me) designing stages. Bear with them while they learn. You need them to do it.

Also... Tough is subjective. In the end I think people want flow and options. Less than obvious stuff is cool.

As long as I don't have to run 20 yards to shoot 1 popper

 

[longbeard]

As long as I don't have to run 20 yards to shoot 1 popper

It's 25 next time.

 

[downrange72]

We are blessed at WVPPs. We have a large group of dedicated people. However, it is the same group of people. Some come early, some come a little later. We are generally set up way before 10 and ready to go at 10:45. It is a later start time but people don't have to dedicate 2 days for set up.

 

[downrange72]

I also like Atlanta's two day option. I like being able to get the stages on the ground and shoot on a Saturday and/or Sunday.

I personally like Saturday USPSA options.

 

[rhino]

Joe that is sort of how I did Deer Creek years ago. I asked for volunteers at the shooters meeting to set up a stage at next months match. I told the shooters that if 2 people volunteered we would have 2 stages if 4 volunteered 4 stages. If no one volunteered no match! Sometimes it took some prodding but it always worked. I always set up the classifier because of the measuring.
The volunteers showed up and set the stages day of the match and I proofed them to make sure legal and safe and then the RO's shot the match. When we were done then the shooters started.
It worked well at that time and I kept an eye on the guys setting up and if I had someone setup 3 months in a row I would make them take a month or two off so they didn't get burned out.
We usually started on time or close and if we were behind and someone complained I asked them why they weren't helping the RO's shoot thru? That usually solved that problem.
RO's then just RO'ed the stage they designed. RO's got to shoot first and then just hang out and RO one stage. There were advantages and disadvantages to this way but it worked.
Don't know if that kind of scenario would work today???

Maybe more clubs did it that way than we know?

Those were also the days when most club matches were three stages, including the classifier. If we had trouble getting enough help back then, it is a much bigger issue now since shooters expect 5-6 stages each month. Plus, we used a lot of shooting boxes and very few if any wall sections when I first started, so setup was minimal by today's standards.

We also had fewer clubs, so I'm not sure if that meant the existing clubs got more of the potential shooters because of the available options, or if we got fewer because of the distances. I remember Coal Creek, WVPPS, Deer Creek, and Red Brush back then. I don't know if FWAPS was around, but maybe they were.

 

[obijohn]

Also, one of the purposes of the local match is preparation for the section match. The section for the nationals. How is the D or C shooter to prepare if there are not difficult and varied stages at the local level?

 

[obijohn]

We are blessed at WVPPs. We have a large group of dedicated people. However, it is the same group of people. Some come early, some come a little later. We are generally set up way before 10 and ready to go at 10:45. It is a later start time but people don't have to dedicate 2 days for set up.

Hasn't always been that way. I recall at least twice in the past where the club could have ceased to exist because of no help.

 

[downrange72]

Hasn't always been that way. I recall at least twice in the past where the club could have ceased to exist because of no help.

It was light when I started regularly in 2010

 

[Fuzz]

I guess it is a bit off topic, but even in my short time in USPSA I am seeing this. At my club it could happen, as of right now the two guys holding it together have too much pride to let it happen, but that makes a lot of work for the 3 of us. It is definitely happening at another club I shoot at monthly and it is sad to see.

Not that I am an expert on this but I like Bend of the River and you have some challenging matches.

I believe your biggest issue attracting shooters is the weekend you choose to shoot it. Northern Indiana has three matches on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th weekends. ACC runs a big match and is doing a great job the same weekend you guys run yours.

Answer: No one has a match offered in Northern Ind on the first weekend of the month. So Everyone within 2 hours of you cannot shoot without going way south. 3-4 hours away.

No I am not shooting every weekend but there would be many times I would drive the 1:45 on the first weekend if there was a match.