Driving in other people's cars (as passenger) with your guns

[femurphy77]

Also a Frenchman that knows the IC better than a Hoosier with a LTCH.How pathetic is that???
The OP needs to brush-up his gun laws.
Being ignorant on gun laws can lead to trouble, especially if you don't know where you are not allowed to carry even with a LTCH.

It is especially critical to know the laws when exercising your rights! Any time I go out of state I review the laws of the states I'll be travelling to/thru to ensure I am legal wherever I'm at and not breaking any laws due to my ignorance of them. Bravo to the OP for introducing his friend to the freedoms many people take for granted.

 

[MCgrease08]

Since everyone has adequately answered the question I will share a personal story of a time that letting someone else drive got me in a bit of trouble while carrying. I've crossed posted this in a couple of other carry threads but it seems kind of relevant here too.

I can laugh about it now because I've changed jobs since this happened.

-0-

I work in a corporate office and we have a no weapons policy. But my cubicle is literally in a corner at the very end of the 3rd floor. If there were ever to be an active shooter scenario I could be trapped, since the nearest stairwell is about 40 - 50 feet away. So one day I decided to throw my .38 snubbie in my laptop bag and take it inside with me. I was testing the waters more than anything to see if this would be a viable means to carry while at work.

As Murphy's law would have it, I had completely forgotten that was the day I was supposed to ride with a co-worker down to the Statehouse in Indy for a meeting. Of course I couldn't very well leave my unattended bag and gun at my desk while I was gone, so I took it with me with the intention of leaving it in my co-worker's car while we went inside.

We had some items we were delivering to the Sec. of State's office, so when we arrived downtown at the Statehouse we parked out front to unload the boxes. I left my bag in the backseat while we unloaded, and after we finished, my co-worker drove the car a few blocks away to park.

I start carrying the packages inside and waited for her to get back. Low and behold, when she arrived she was carrying my laptop bag. She handed it to me and said, "you left this in the car. I didn't want to leave it in plain sight while the car was parked, so I brought it back to you so you can keep an eye on it." Of course at this point we're right up on the security checkpoint and she starts putting her stuff through the x-ray machine, getting ready to walk through the metal detector.

I can't very well turn around and go back to the car. She has the keys and is already through the checkpoint. I did my best to try and casually ask the Sheriff's Deputy if I could leave my bag with him because there was a prohibited item inside. Of course he was like 90 years old and didn't hear me so he yells, "You got what inside your bag?"

I got closer and told him that I had a firearm inside but I didn't want my co-worker to know, and asked him to please give me some guidance. He motions to a state police trooper standing about 20 yards away and waves the trooper over. I try to explain the situation using my "inside voice" with my co-worker now looking back at me wondering what the hold-up is.

The trooper tells me my only option is to take it back to the car, under his supervision. He radios another trooper and requests a lock box be brought down to the security checkpoint. Now I'm standing there with two Indiana State troopers and a Marion County Sheriff's Deputy while my co-worker stares back at me. I have to ask her for her car keys while the trooper pulls my holstered firearm out of the bag and places it in the lock box. He then escorts me out of the building and personally walks me back to the car three blocks away so I can remove it from the lock box, put it back in the laptop bag and lock everything in the trunk.

After all was said and done it took nearly 20 minutes from the time I originally walked into the building with the gun, to the time I came back without it. When I returned, my co-worker was chatting with the other trooper, no doubt trying to figure out what exactly was going on. Now this co-worker isn't exactly my boss, but we work in the same department and she definitely outranks me. When we met up she said something to the effect of, "the trooper told me you had some tools or something in your bag?"

I told her I had some prohibited items inside and left it at that, but I know she saw the trooper pull the gun out of the bag and put it in the lock box. This happened about three months ago and we haven't spoken about it since.

The moral of the story is, you never know what could happen during the day that could end up exposing your firearm. Best laid plans can go to hell real quick, and often due to circumstances out of your control.

 

[VERT]

OP the guns in the trunk won't be a problem. But the weed in the glovebox is a big no no. I expect both of you will be detained.

 

[myhightechsec]

I have read Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-47-2 many times and ultimately I come up with the same questionable flaw.

Billy and Bobby decide to go to a range. Billy has his LTC and Bobby doesn't. Billy loads his range bag up with his pistols and they get ready to drive off.

1) Billy drives... places the range bag in the back seat... totally LEGAL.

2) Bobby drives... Billy places the range bag in the back seat. SAME two people. SAME range bag. SAME guns. Totally ILLEGAL.

3) Billy drives sister Katie's car 'cause his is in the shop. WHO KNOWS what is legal or illegal.

4) Bobby drives sister Susie's car 'cause her's is in the shop. ILLEGAL? Again, same two people, same guns, same bag.

The ONLY difference in these situations is the identity of the driver. It seems as if this would be an easy legislative fix. There should not be a difference between legal and illegal merely based on who is sitting in the driver seat of a car and who is sitting in the passenger seat.

 

[cce1302]

I have read Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-47-2 many times and ultimately I come up with the same questionable flaw.

Billy and Bobby decide to go to a range. Billy has his LTC and Bobby doesn't. Billy loads his range bag up with his pistols and they get ready to drive off.

1) Billy drives... places the range bag in the back seat... totally LEGAL.

2) Bobby drives... Billy places the range bag in the back seat. SAME two people. SAME range bag. SAME guns. Totally ILLEGAL.

3) Billy drives sister Katie's car 'cause his is in the shop. WHO KNOWS what is legal or illegal.

4) Bobby drives sister Susie's car 'cause her's is in the shop. ILLEGAL? Again, same two people, same guns, same bag.

The ONLY difference in these situations is the identity of the driver. It seems as if this would be an easy legislative fix. There should not be a difference between legal and illegal merely based on who is sitting in the driver seat of a car and who is sitting in the passenger seat.

Can you quote the section of 35-47 that says anything about a "driver"? I can't find any evidence of your assertions #2-4.

 

[myhightechsec]

Can you quote the section of 35-47 that says anything about a "driver"? I can't find any evidence of your assertions #2-4.

Is it legal for Billy, a LTC holder, to carry loaded guns in a range bag in the backseat of a car he is driving? Yes. " a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun."

Is it legal for Bobby, a non-LTC holder, to carry loaded guns in a range bag in the backseat of a car he is driving? No. "a person shall not carry a handgun in anyvehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed underthis chapter to carry a handgun.

And from some of the answers above it is apparent that some of the posters agree with 1 and 2.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Kinda reminds me of what they said in Virginia when Constitutional carry was being argued. Legal to OC, no permit. Unlawful to carry concealed without permit. "So we're issuing a permit for someone to put on a jacket?"

I love how they distilled it down to that sentence to highlight the idiocy.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[EPeter213]

So... if billy rides, and bobby drives, billy should keep the range bag in his lap.

 

[actaeon277]

I'm on my tablet, and copy/paste doesn't work so well.

IC 35-47-2-1
Section b list exceptions to being licensed.
Subsection 4 (of paragraph b) states it is legal to be in the car, with someone else driving, and guns are not readily accessible, in a case, and unloaded.

(Unless paragraph c comes into action...)

 

[cce1302]

Is it legal for Billy, a LTC holder, to carry loaded guns in a range bag in the backseat of a car he is driving? Yes. " a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun."

Is it legal for Bobby, a non-LTC holder, to carry loaded guns in a range bag in the backseat of a car he is driving? No. "a person shall not carry a handgun in anyvehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed underthis chapter to carry a handgun.

And from some of the answers above it is apparent that some of the posters agree with 1 and 2.

Those don't say anything about whether or not billy is the driver. Can you quote the section of 35-47 that says anything about a "driver"?

 

[KLB]

Is it legal for Billy, a LTC holder, to carry loaded guns in a range bag in the backseat of a car he is driving? Yes. " a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun."

Is it legal for Bobby, a non-LTC holder, to carry loaded guns in a range bag in the backseat of a car he is driving? No. "a person shall not carry a handgun in anyvehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed underthis chapter to carry a handgun.

And from some of the answers above it is apparent that some of the posters agree with 1 and 2.

I don't think that a gun in a bag in the back seat of a vehicle would qualify as "on or about the person's body". I imagine an overzealous officer and prosecutor could try to make that case, but I would be surprised.

 

[actaeon277]

I'm on my tablet, and copy/paste doesn't work so well.

IC 35-47-2-1
Section b list exceptions to being licensed.
Subsection 4 (of paragraph b) states it is legal to be in the car, with someone else driving, and guns are not readily accessible, in a case, and unloaded.

(Unless paragraph c comes into action...)

Okay. I'm at a real computer now.

IC 35-47-2 Chapter 2. Regulation of Handguns

IC 35-47-2-0.1 Repealed (As added by P.L.220-2011, SEC.618. Repealed by P.L.63-2012, SEC.72.)

IC 35-47-2-1 Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery

Sec. 1.
(a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.

(b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person may carry a handgun without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun if:
(1) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person;
(2) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body while lawfully present in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the person:
..(A) has the consent of the owner, renter, lessor, or person who legally controls the property to have the handgun on the premises;
..(B) is attending a firearms related event on the property, including a gun show, firearms expo, gun owner's club or convention, hunting club, shooting club, or training course; or
..(C) is on the property to receive firearms related services, including the repair, maintenance, or modification of a firearm;
(3) the person carries the handgun in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person, if the handgun is:
..(A) unloaded;
..(B) not readily accessible; and
..(C) secured in a case;
(4) the person carries the handgun while lawfully present in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the handgun is:
..(A) unloaded;
..(B) not readily accessible; and
..(C) secured in a case; or
(5) the person carries the handgun:
.. at a shooting range (as defined in IC 14-22-31.5-3);
..(B) while attending a firearms instructional course; or
..(C) while engaged in a legal hunting activity.

(c) Unless the person's right to possess a firearm has been restored under IC 35-47-4-7, a person who has been convicted of domestic battery under IC 35-42-2-1.3 may not possess or carry a handgun.

(d) This section may be not construed: (1) to prohibit a person who owns, leases, rents, or otherwise legally controls private property from regulating or prohibiting the possession of firearms on the private property; (2) to allow a person to adopt or enforce an ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that: (A) prohibits; or (B) has the effect of prohibiting; an employee of the person from possessing a firearm or ammunition that is locked in the trunk of the employee's vehicle, kept in the glove compartment of the employee's locked vehicle, or stored out of plain sight in the employee's locked vehicle, unless the person's adoption or enforcement of the ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule is allowed under IC 34-28-7-2(b); or (3) to allow a person to adopt or enforce a law, statute, ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that allows a person to possess or transport a firearm or ammunition if the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting the firearm or ammunition by state or federal law.

(e) A person who knowingly or intentionally violates this section commits a Class A misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Level 5 felony: (1) if the offense is committed: (A) on or in school property; (B) within five hundred (500) feet of school property; or (C) on a school bus; or (2) if the person: (A) has a prior conviction of any offense under: (i) this section; or (ii) section 22 of this chapter; or (B) has been convicted of a felony within fifteen (15) years before the date of the offense

 

[actaeon277]

copying and pasting from a pdf was NOT fun.

 

[MarkC]

I'm on my tablet, and copy/paste doesn't work so well.

IC 35-47-2-1
Section b list exceptions to being licensed.
Subsection 4 (of paragraph b) states it is legal to be in the car, with someone else driving, and guns are not readily accessible, in a case, and unloaded.

(Unless paragraph c comes into action...)

^^^ Here's your answer. The legislature, in response to some overzealous law enforcement, added in several exceptions during the 2011 session. So long as the handgun is unloaded, in some kind of a "case," and not "readily accessible," AND the people in the car either own the car or have permission to be in the car or permission to possess the car, then the exception to the LTCH requirement applies.

"Readily accessible" and "case" have not yet been defined by the courts, though, although my friend, former co-worker, and most gun-friendly ISP attorney believes that even a holster is sufficient. I'm not sure I'd try that in case you run into Officer Overzealous, but I think a range bag would certainly qualify.

Subsection (c), convicted domestic abuser, is but one category of a federally prohibited person, and shouldn't have firearms of any kind anyway.

To see the bill that implemented these firearms-friendly changes, look at Senate Enrolled Act 506 from the 2011 session. This is the same bill that allowed permitless carry while hunting, on a range, at a "firearms related event," etc.

 

[MarkC]

copying and pasting from a pdf was NOT fun.

It looks like we were working on the same issue at the same time!

 

[actaeon277]

It looks like we were working on the same issue at the same time!

Well, I guess I should have waited.
Cause when I pasted, all the words jumbled together and I had to go through and space everything out to make it legible.

 

[MarkC]

Well, I guess I should have waited.
Cause when I pasted, all the words jumbled together and I had to go through and space everything out to make it legible.

I've run into that, too, when trying to copy and paste from the PDF's on the General Assembly's website. There must be some kind of strange formatting they do that doesn't get picked up with the copy command.

In any event, I think you found the right answer. I'm not sure how the driver/passenger distinction got thrown in there, although joint possession is kind of fact sensitive.

As I recall, a legislator from southeastern Indiana was outraged when Conservation Officers descended upon a DNR range and issued tickets to handgun shooters who didn't have an LTCH. That was the same session when the "take your gun to work but leave it in your car" law was passed.

 

[myhightechsec]

Okay. I'm at a real computer now.

IC 35-47-2 Chapter 2. Regulation of Handguns

IC 35-47-2-0.1 Repealed (As added by P.L.220-2011, SEC.618. Repealed by P.L.63-2012, SEC.72.)

IC 35-47-2-1 Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery

Sec. 1.
(a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.

(b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person may carry a handgun without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun if:
(1) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person;
(2) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body while lawfully present in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the person:
..(A) has the consent of the owner, renter, lessor, or person who legally controls the property to have the handgun on the premises;
..(B) is attending a firearms related event on the property, including a gun show, firearms expo, gun owner's club or convention, hunting club, shooting club, or training course; or
..(C) is on the property to receive firearms related services, including the repair, maintenance, or modification of a firearm;
(3) the person carries the handgun in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person, if the handgun is:
..(A) unloaded;
..(B) not readily accessible; and
..(C) secured in a case;
(4) the person carries the handgun while lawfully present in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the handgun is:
..(A) unloaded;
..(B) not readily accessible; and
..(C) secured in a case; or
(5) the person carries the handgun:
.. at a shooting range (as defined in IC 14-22-31.5-3);
..(B) while attending a firearms instructional course; or
..(C) while engaged in a legal hunting activity.

(c) Unless the person's right to possess a firearm has been restored under IC 35-47-4-7, a person who has been convicted of domestic battery under IC 35-42-2-1.3 may not possess or carry a handgun.

(d) This section may be not construed: (1) to prohibit a person who owns, leases, rents, or otherwise legally controls private property from regulating or prohibiting the possession of firearms on the private property; (2) to allow a person to adopt or enforce an ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that: (A) prohibits; or (B) has the effect of prohibiting; an employee of the person from possessing a firearm or ammunition that is locked in the trunk of the employee's vehicle, kept in the glove compartment of the employee's locked vehicle, or stored out of plain sight in the employee's locked vehicle, unless the person's adoption or enforcement of the ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule is allowed under IC 34-28-7-2(b); or (3) to allow a person to adopt or enforce a law, statute, ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that allows a person to possess or transport a firearm or ammunition if the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting the firearm or ammunition by state or federal law.

(e) A person who knowingly or intentionally violates this section commits a Class A misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Level 5 felony: (1) if the offense is committed: (A) on or in school property; (B) within five hundred (500) feet of school property; or (C) on a school bus; or (2) if the person: (A) has a prior conviction of any offense under: (i) this section; or (ii) section 22 of this chapter; or (B) has been convicted of a felony within fifteen (15) years before the date of the offense

but my post dealt with loaded handguns, not the unloaded handguns that you bolded.

We agree that a LTC holder can carry a loaded handgun in the backseat of a car he is driving without a legal problem.

We agree that a non-LTC holder cannot carry a loaded handgun in the backseat of a car he is driving without a legal problem.

What is the legal status of the weapon of a LTC holder placing a loaded handgun in the backseat of a car he is riding in as a passenger with a non-LTC holder driving? Legal or not legal?

Again, my contention is that there should not be a difference between legal and illegal merely based on who is sitting in the driver seat of a car and who is sitting in the passenger seat.

 

[miguel]

Jesus, I am just going to drive next time and make him buy me lunch...

 

[VERT]

Jesus, I am just going to drive next time and make him buy me lunch...

And gas. Don't forget gas. At least a case of beer should also be involved somewhere.