Enhanced Interrogation- from a guy who did it, and saved a lot of lives

[ATM]

Seriously. You don't find your scenario a little nutty? I mean, dude, you're showcasing a sense of morality where you're willing to put yourself in a position as moral judge and executioner for someone who is just trying to save their son against someone who initiated the whole thing. The point you're trying to make? You ain't making it.

I don't need you to provide your self-justification, just gave you an opportunity.

 

[Woobie]

Is it painful? Do you feel like you are drowning? Is it scary? Would you do it to your kid?

Splashing water on someones face is a game you play at the pool.

1)Not very 2)Yes 3)subjective, but probably.

My main source for those answers is people who have done it for fun.

4)If my kid locked his class up in a bunker and threatened to blow them up, I would, if I thought I could stop him.

 

[foszoe]

Because I am commanded to obey them that have the rule over me. That sometimes comes into conflict. But at those points you and I know Who wins.

Are there no exceptions?

 

[Woobie]

Are there no exceptions?

To obeying those who have the rule over me? Yes. I covered that in the conflict comment. Otherwise, I don't know what you mean.

 

[poptab]

I don't, but a psychologist does.

A single psychologist. Im not convinced.

 

[ATM]

I don't, but a psychologist does.

A single psychologist. Im not convinced.

State psychologists?

They also know exactly how to tap into our self-justification mechanisms and manipulate massive support for whatever they want to do, of course.

 

[Woobie]

A single psychologist. Im not convinced.

So do some research. As I said, I know guys who have done it for kicks. You might say they weren't right to begin with, but they weren't forever changed by the experience.

 

[Lex Concord]

That was me. Jamil may not want to own that one.

Fumble!

I wasn't sure, hence the question mark in the citation. Correction appreciated. Sorry, Jamil.

 

[Woobie]

State psychologists?

They also know exactly how to tap into our self-justification mechanisms and manipulate massive support for whatever they want to do, of course.

Well, if there is a preponderance of psychological research out there that shows water-boarding indelibly and deeply harms someone mentally or emotionally, I'd like to see it.

 

[poptab]

1)Not very 2)Yes 3)subjective, but probably.

My main source for those answers is people who have done it for fun.

4)If my kid locked his class up in a bunker and threatened to blow them up, I would, if I thought I could stop him.

There is a big difference in doing it for fun and doing it against your will.

 

[Woobie]

Fumble!

I wasn't sure, hence the question mark in the citation. Correction appreciated. Sorry, Jamil.

Just a false start. 5 yard penalty, repeat 1st down.

 

[Woobie]

There is a big difference in doing it for fun and doing it against your will.

Truly, there is. But is the effect measurably different? And the bad guys volunteer for it too.

 

[foszoe]

There are a lot of assumptions in this thread. We put to death people that we were certain at one time were guilty...until it's shown they weren't. Justification of torture because one is certain information is being hidden doesn't make it certain nor does it make it right.

We can rationalize if we wish, but calling a wrong a right is well wrong at least for those who hold a Christian Worldview.

 

[ATM]

So do some research. As I said, I know guys who have done it for kicks. You might say they weren't right to begin with, but they weren't forever changed by the experience.

Because they volunteered to experience it and could stop it anytime they wanted?

...And the bad guys volunteer for it too.

Which bad guys, the guilty ones?

 

[poptab]

So do some research. As I said, I know guys who have done it for kicks. You might say they weren't right to begin with, but they weren't forever changed by the experience.

Its like saying sex doesnt cause lasting mental problems therefore rape doesnt either.

 

[Woobie]

There are a lot of assumptions in this thread. We put to death people that we were certain at one time were guilty...until it's shown they weren't. Justification of torture because one is certain information is being hidden doesn't make it certain nor does it make it right.

We can rationalize if we wish, but calling a wrong a right is well wrong at least for those who hold a Christian Worldview.

Is slapping an enemy wrong? Not a personal enemy, but your nation's enemy? Is scaring that enemy wrong? Depriving him of sleep?

I know it is wrong to not help the afflicted and needy. I know it is wrong to allow the defenseless to be murdered.

And if both are wrong, when faced with the decision, for which would you rather answer in judgement?

 

[ATM]

Is slapping an enemy wrong? Not a personal enemy, but your nation's enemy? Is scaring that enemy wrong? Depriving him of sleep?

Ask the nations the U.S. has invaded. We are the bully of earth.

 

[foszoe]

Is slapping an enemy wrong? Not a personal enemy, but your nation's enemy? Is scaring that enemy wrong? Depriving him of sleep?

I know it is wrong to not help the afflicted and needy. I know it is wrong to allow the defenseless to be murdered.

And if both are wrong, when faced with the decision, for which would you rather answer in judgement?

It is always wrong not to recognize the image of Christ in another person and fail to treat them as such.

Sin is sin. There is no degree of sin.

It is always wrong to kill. It is always wrong to torture. Whichever wrong I commit I will have to submit to the Lord's mercy and any attempt to justify one over the other means I am replacing God as judge.

 

[Woobie]

It is always wrong not to recognize the image of Christ in another person and fail to treat them as such.

Sin is sin. There is no degree of sin.

It is always wrong to kill. It is always wrong to torture. Whichever wrong I commit I will have to submit to the Lord's mercy and any attempt to justify one over the other means I am replacing God as judge.

I can't deny any of that, except the last. But I also know that there will be moral dilemmas for those unfortunate enough to encounter them. Is the leader of a country who is described Biblically as "watching for our souls" to shirk that responsibility because doing otherwise would dishonor a person who has dishonored themselves?

And can I justifiably kill someone who is made in the image of God? Is this not a much greater dilemma than hitting them, or scaring them?

 

[Woobie]

Its like saying sex doesnt cause lasting mental problems therefore rape doesnt either.

Is it really equivalent? Show me the research.