Florida mayor opens fire on SWAT team serving warrant at his home

[churchmouse]

I've learned in my brief time on INGO that INGOers are just better at everything. They require no training, knowledge or professional expertise. They just wing it and it always works.

 

[MarkC]

I never said anything about how it should have been handled. I am not SWAT and I don't have any information about the charges or the arrestee to give an accurate tactical plan, so I'm not even going to armchair QB it.

Point taken. I took this supposition from your upthread observation that you and a shift partner would make quick warrant arrests and be done with it.

I'm sure that someone did a risk assessment on this guy, and determined SWAT was the way to go. As the event unfolded, he did turn out to be dangerous and armed. What we are not clear on was whether he knew they were law enforcement when he fired.

 

[MarkC]

I've learned in my brief time on INGO that INGOers are just better at everything. They require no training, knowledge or professional expertise. They just wing it and it always works.

Well, everyone drives, so they believe themselves experts in traffic law, right?

Everybody reads the newspaper or news sites or Twitter, so they're experts in public policy, right?

Everyone who watches TV and has ever called 911 is an expert on how the police should handle calls, right?

Edited to add: Seems like there is always a Donnie Baker style "expert" on State Law! around.

 

[Birds Away]

Well, everyone drives, so they believe themselves experts in traffic law, right?

Everybody reads the newspaper or news sites or Twitter, so they're experts in public policy, right?

Everyone who watches TV and has ever called 911 is an expert on how the police should handle calls, right?

Edited to add: Seems like there is always a Donnie Baker style "expert" on State Law! around.

Hey, I used to watch Adam 12. I was in on the very beginning of SWAT teams.

 

[Birds Away]

All kidding aside. If you send an assault team to get me in the wee hours of the morning then I can only conclude that the mission is to kill me. Nothing else makes sense.

 

[Fargo]

My comment includes anyone that commented about how the officers did it incorrectly/they could have done it better or blames the officers' actions on them being shot at.

So, when the official lawn enforcement story is that they used a shot gun to blow the front door open, no one gets to comment on that? All the details that have been released have been released by one party, the cops.

Am I to gather that we are not to take the police’s story as true?

 

[cce1302]

So, when the official lawn enforcement story is that they used a shot gun to blow the front door open, no one gets to comment on that? All the details that have been released have been released by one party, the cops.

Am I to gather that we are not to take the police’s story as true?

Good luck...

 

[MarkC]

So, when the official lawn enforcement story is that they used a shot gun to blow the front door open, no one gets to comment on that? All the details that have been released have been released by one party, the cops.

Am I to gather that we are not to take the police’s story as true?

Well, having been on the other side of these issues, if they're admitting it, it is probably true. I have seen some cases where PIOs had to admit the obvious and neglected to get into further embarrassing details.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Point taken. I took this supposition from your upthread observation that you and a shift partner would make quick warrant arrests and be done with it.

I'm sure that someone did a risk assessment on this guy, and determined SWAT was the way to go. As the event unfolded, he did turn out to be dangerous and armed. What we are not clear on was whether he knew they were law enforcement when he fired.

That was Denny....

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

So, when the official lawn enforcement story is that they used a shot gun to blow the front door open, no one gets to comment on that? All the details that have been released have been released by one party, the cops.

Am I to gather that we are not to take the police’s story as true?

That isn't my point. My point is that no one has all the information as to why SWAT was utilized, but they are wrong for doing so. And they are wrong for using a breaching shotgun when the ram wouldn't work.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I've learned in my brief time on INGO that INGOers are just better at everything. They require no training, knowledge or professional expertise. They just wing it and it always works.

All kidding aside. If you send an assault team to get me in the wee hours of the morning then I can only conclude that the mission is to kill me. Nothing else makes sense.

Your second comment totally proves your first. But you like making inflammatory comments about the police so it really doesn't surprise me.

 

[MarkC]

That isn't my point. My point is that no one has all the information as to why SWAT was utilized, but they are wrong for doing so. And they are wrong for using a breaching shotgun when the ram wouldn't work. (Mark's emphasis added.)

Of all the observations and snark I've made about this incident, I think ^^^ is probably the most important point.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Of all the observations and snark I've made about this incident, I think ^^^ is probably the most important point.

You think they were wrong for using it?

 

[MarkC]

You think they were wrong for using it?

Absolutely. I've never been a SWAT member, so I lack that credential. However, the opportunities for the occupants misunderstanding what was happening, as well as the potential for unintentionally shooting someone inside the house, are just two of the issues that immediately leap to my mind to make me think this is a bad idea.

 

[Fargo]

You think they were wrong for using it?

Outside of a firefight, or a hostage situation, I can’t think of any circumstance in which discharging a shotgun through the door of a residence to open it is A. legal or B. Not asking to get cops or citizens killed.

Indiana has an entire statute devoted to the circumstances under which citizens can lawfully use deadly force against police officers, this type of crap is why that statute exists.

 

[Mongo59]

That isn't my point. My point is that no one has all the information as to why SWAT was utilized, but they are wrong for doing so. And they are wrong for using a breaching shotgun when the ram wouldn't work.

Ok, I admit it, I am an idiot. Please educate me. Under what conditions would the charge of "practicing medicine without a lic" mandate special weapons and tactics? Do you fix tea or coffee for someone who is shooting down your front door?

Are we to accept some form of breaching maneuver as their way of saying "hello, lets talk"?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Absolutely. I've never been a SWAT member, so I lack that credential. However, the opportunities for the occupants misunderstanding what was happening, as well as the potential for unintentionally shooting someone inside the house, are just two of the issues that immediately leap to my mind to make me think this is a bad idea.

Outside of a firefight, or a hostage situation, I can’t think of any circumstance in which discharging a shotgun through the door of a residence to open it is A. legal or B. Not asking to get cops or citizens killed.

Indiana has an entire statute devoted to the circumstances under which citizens can lawfully use deadly force against police officers, this type of crap is why that statute exists.

Breaching shotguns don't use buckshot or slugs, they use a specific round for shooting the door hinges. They don't "shoot through the door" to open it. Phylodog could expand on it more since he was SWAT for so many years. If you are going to say the use of a certain tool is wrong, you should at least know how it works before making a statement about it.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Ok, I admit it, I am an idiot. Please educate me. Under what conditions would the charge of "practicing medicine without a lic" mandate special weapons and tactics? Do you fix tea or coffee for someone who is shooting down your front door?

Are we to accept some form of breaching maneuver as their way of saying "hello, lets talk"?

If the information gathered about the person you were going to arrest led you to believe that SWAT was needed to make the arrest (since they have specialized training and tactics) would you utilize them, or just waltz in all nonchalant-like? We don't have all the information that SWAT was given, which is once again my point.

 

[Fargo]

Breaching shotguns don't use buckshot or slugs, they use a specific round for shooting the door hinges. They don't "shoot through the door" to open it. Phylodog could expand on it more since he was SWAT for so many years. If you are going to say the use of a certain tool is wrong, you should at least know how it works before making a statement about it.

A. you are assuming that powdered metal rounds were used, and B. whether buckshot is coming through the door or pieces of a lock is 99% irrelevant to the legal statute as far as when you get to shoot cops.

When someone starts shooting at you, are you supposed to make sure they’re not blanks before returning fire?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

A. you are assuming that powdered metal rounds were used, and B. whether buckshot is coming through the door or pieces of a lock is 99% irrelevant to the legal statute as far as when you get to shoot cops.

When someone starts shooting at you, are you supposed to make sure they’re not blanks before returning fire?

When you are ready to have a rational discussion based on facts instead of emotion, let me know.