Gaming IDPA

[jwo483]

I guess I see gaming different than others. When you build a gun up to the rules that is not gaming. The rules are there to even the playing field. When you play by the rules you are competing.
When the 6'6" person shoots his targets over the wall instead of at the ends like everybody else has to. A gun that has a aftermarket trigger stippling in places that put it in a higher class than he is shooting in and loads that don't make power factor for faster follow up shots. That I call gaming.

If the shooter is the type of person that can't stand loosing to some one playing by the rules he has a problem.
When I see this kind of stuff I laugh and say ok whatever.
What realty gives me a chuckle is seeing the old man twice the age of the gamer walk not run through the stages and smoke the person that is basically cheating.
People can game all the want they are still losers.

Too many IDPA clubs only follow the rules they like, if they know them at all. Kind of disapointing when the first thing the SO says in the walk through is " Well I've never really read the rule book". Seems like somebody should do something about that. Nobody else would ever know that my gun weighs 43.1 oz with the stainless steel guide rod, 42.5 with the plastic, but I would. Same rules for everybody all the time or why play.

 

[rvb]

I guess I see gaming different than others. When you build a gun up to the rules that is not gaming. The rules are there to even the playing field. When you play by the rules you are competing.
When the 6'6" person shoots his targets over the wall instead of at the ends like everybody else has to. A gun that has a aftermarket trigger stippling in places that put it in a higher class than he is shooting in and loads that don't make power factor for faster follow up shots. That I call gaming.

If the shooter is the type of person that can't stand loosing to some one playing by the rules he has a problem.
When I see this kind of stuff I laugh and say ok whatever.
What realty gives me a chuckle is seeing the old man twice the age of the gamer walk not run through the stages and smoke the person that is basically cheating.
People can game all the want they are still losers.

not making PF and using illegal gear is just flat "cheating."
Gaming is generally w/in the rules, such taking advantage of bad stage design (eg shooting over walls).
-rvb

 

[JHB]

not making PF and using illegal gear is just flat "cheating."
Gaming is generally w/in the rules, such taking advantage of bad stage design (eg shooting over walls).
-rvb

I see gaming and cheating as the same thing. So I guess we see things differently.
Personally I don't care what other people do or what their score is. Every match I shoot I ask myself what could I have done better and am I happy with my performance that day.

 

[jwo483]

not making PF and using illegal gear is just flat "cheating."
Gaming is generally w/in the rules, such taking advantage of bad stage design (eg shooting over walls).
-rvb

Agree 100% Ryan. If it doesnt tell me I can't do it in the rules or the stage description, that means I can.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Agree 100% Ryan. If it doesnt tell me I can't do it in the rules or the stage description, that means I can.

Yep Ryan is right on. The shooter can choose what he wants to do as long as it is within the rules. We have all lost or won matches based on how the rules are enforced that day. Foot Faults, equipment, PF, trigger calls or maybe not, scoring mistakes etc. all play a part in the course of fire.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I’ve never been treated more poorly in the shooting sports disciplines than I was at an IDPA match. YMMV

Typically, every IDPA match Ive been to in 5 years or so has been absolutely positive. Though I have seen one specific a-hole shooter (that might even be a literal INGO shooter as I recall) that will **** all over even the newest guy if he makes a mistake. All while doing anything he can to game the system and walk right up to that line and lean over it without crossing it. (figuratively speaking) He's the first to game the system himself, all while calling out anyone who would try to do what he does. I avoid his squad whenever possible because he is insufferable and makes my day not as fun. But he is loved by the regulars, so everyone gives him a pass. (usually) But he is far and above the exception to the rule.

 

[MuncieFud]

A full size M & P will NOT fit the CCP box, with or without base pads. A compact will. The box is supposed to prevent gaming, if it fit's it's kosher.

maybe the box has changed at some point, I was just reading through different forums and saw that at one time it did fit with base pads that sat flash with the take down tool.

 

[Coach]

Gaming causes people who don't like gaming to have hurt feelings. That leads to the rule book becoming larger.

 

[Grelber]

maybe the box has changed at some point, I was just reading through different forums and saw that at one time it did fit with base pads that sat flash with the take down tool.

CCP dimensions were changed and some guns that fit the division no longer fit the division.
I have a 4" XD 40 that I had worked up a light load for & bought sights & mags & trigger kit for etc, tack driving little gun that is fun to shoot. After the arbitrary dimension change the XD was 1/8" too tall.
So now I do not pay IDPA dues.

 

[Grelber]

Gaming causes people who don't like gaming to have hurt feelings.

Forgot about the secondary benefits.

 

[Coach]

Forgot about the secondary benefits.

I am amazed by the number of liberals in the shooting sports who are very concerned that someone might be having fun.

 

[Randy Harris]

Definitions of gaming vary from individual to individual and seem to be directly proportional to why they shoot. If you shoot it to test your martial skill and carry gear (or a very close approximation of it) then you see "gaming" where someone who shoots it just for the sport of it does not.

At the 2014 IDPA Nationals they had a poll of what carry gear you use and what gun you actually carry if you actually carry a gun in real life. The Glock 19 was the most popular carry gun according to the poll. They also asked what you were shooting in the match. Exactly ONE person out of the 300 and something competitors was shooting a Glock 19...ONE. That is a problem with the game if it is ostensibly an action shooting sport for "carry guns"....yet no one was shooting the most popular carry gun..... This was the year BEFORE they started the CCP division. I think CCP actually came about as a result of that skewed poll at the Nationals. If NO ONE is competing with their carry gun because it has a competitive disadvantage then something needs to be fixed if the sport is supposed to represent actual carry guns.... Two months later Compact Carry Pistol was a thing so that the most commonly carried gun in everyday life among the attendees would have a division to compete in that it did not suffer from a competitive disadvantage.

At the equipment check at the match they told me "Your ammo was kind of hot" I said "Really? That was factory CCI Blazer Brass 9mm 115gr....If THAT is hot then what the heck are other people shooting"? I asked what mine chronoed at on power factor and they said 131... The fact that 131 was viewed as HOT shows how low powered the loads that most serious competitors that would sign up for the Nationals loaded their own ammo down to. They were shooting ammo WEAKER than the standard pressure factory 9mm ball ammo you buy to practice with. Why? To have every advantage allowed by the rules . (SSP minimum power factor is 125 by the way)

Some of us actually carry what we shoot in matches (or carry something VERY similar) . At the time I was carrying a G34 with night sights in IWB holster in everyday life and used a G34 in IWB holster but without the night sights in IDPA. So I have no complaint with people shooting Glock 34s in Stock Service Pistol even though that was not what the original intent of that division was.....but the fact that the 34s made the 19 compete at a competitive disadvantage to the point that it had to have a new division created is kind of telling.

So is using a 34 a gamer move? Not in my opinion if you actually carry that in everyday life. But it probably is if you claim to not be a gamer yet you compete with a much larger gun than you really carry. Is it a gamer move to use down loaded ammo? Not if you are a "gamer" and shoot it just for the sport but I think it is pretty weak to use ammo that is loaded lighter than the weak ass factory ball ammo you can buy in the store so you can shoot the gun faster. Especially if you are supposedly "doing it with real carry guns and gear. "

On the other hand if you just view it as a sport that requires a gun and has some rules on ammo power factor and gun weight that you are trying to adhere to without putting yourself at any kind of competitive disadvantage then ALL of that is still "Gaming" but if you are a "Gamer" that is allowable and frankly expected. It is only when you are expected to adhere to a certain standard and you dip below it (by using equipment that you'd never use on the street) that you can be called a gamer in a derogatory manner. If you like to participate and give yourself the best chance against the others then you should take full advantage of the rules. That is expected. If you prefer to profess to the world that you do it for "real world" practice and want to roll with your carry gear then you are going to be held to a little higher standard with regards to NOT taking competitive advantages.

Either way, shoot it or don't for whatever reason you choose. Some prefer to view it as a sport like golf and some use it to practice their martial gunhandling and marksmanship skills under peer pressure. Neither one is wrong. But if you are a self professing "Gamer" you will be cut more slack with regards to gear and ammo than a self professing "Tactical Timmy" will. A gamer with a 9mm 1911 and 125.01 power factor loads is going to get a lot less grief than a timmy with that same set up.

 

[jwo483]

maybe the box has changed at some point, I was just reading through different forums and saw that at one time it did fit with base pads that sat flash with the take down tool.

It never fit the CCP box, SSP yes even with base pads.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Ephesians 4:32

Is this in the rule book?​

 

[MuncieFud]

It's marketed to fit the CCP box, https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/257499-mp-full-size-in-idpa-ccp/ people apparently just standed down the stock base pads to fit.

 

[jwo483]

CCP dimensions were changed and some guns that fit the division no longer fit the division.
I have a 4" XD 40 that I had worked up a light load for & bought sights & mags & trigger kit for etc, tack driving little gun that is fun to shoot. After the arbitrary dimension change the XD was 1/8" too tall.
So now I do not pay IDPA dues.[/QUOTE

See below.

 

[jwo483]

Uh, that is a compact, not a full size M&P. I have a compact and IT barely fits the CCP box with those base pads. I also have a box, the new one.The grip on the full-size gun holds17 rounds. It has never, no way, ever, fit in the CCP box. It does, and always has, fit in the SSP/ESP box and you can load mags to 10 rounds instead of 8.

 

[rhino]

Definitions of gaming vary from individual to individual and seem to be directly proportional to why they shoot. If you shoot it to test your martial skill and carry gear (or a very close approximation of it) then you see "gaming" where someone who shoots it just for the sport of it does not.

And that's a problem. A word has a meaning that is recognized by all, not someone's opinion of what it should mean. In the context of shooting sports, "gaming" is all too often a pejorative that effectively means "you're not doing it the way I think you should be doing it, especially if you beat ." There is a lot of sour grapes in the history of it along with a lot of trying to impose personal motives and ideals on others in terms of how they choose to compete.

Gaming = playing a game within the rules; nothing more or nothing less. Go outside of the rules and it's cheating. Some gamers are very competitive and some are less so.

If you care about the scores, especially relative to other people, you're a gamer. If you're there solely to practice and evaluate your skills and you're not a "gamer," then you don't care about about how your score compares to anyone else.

"Gaming" just is. It's neither good nor bad, although to some people it's a sin akin to being a Hilary Clinton supporter.

For those who disagree with my notion of gaming, and who also do not identify as a gamer, I wonder how many of you walk the stage or even look at it to see where the targets are before you shoot. If you're not a gamer, it doesn't make a lot of sense to walk through stage, note where all the targets are, plan where you will shoot each and when and where you will reload, etc. etc. I've seen plenty of self-identified "non-gamers" at both IDPA and USPSA matches over the years spending time carefully planning how they're going to execute the course of fire in order to maximize their score. That's . . . interesting.

 

[jwo483]

CCP dimensions were changed and some guns that fit the division no longer fit the division.
I have a 4" XD 40 that I had worked up a light load for & bought sights & mags & trigger kit for etc, tack driving little gun that is fun to shoot. After the arbitrary dimension change the XD was 1/8" too tall.
So now I do not pay IDPA dues.[/QUOTE

Just so you know, there are several clubs in the area that don't care if you pay IDPA dues. Selective rule enforcement ya know? Also, the XD 4" is legal for both SSP and ESP, although your light loads need to make 125 PF, if you care about that kind of thing. You will only find a chrono at higher level matches. But I know, 40 bucks is a lot of money.

 

[Grelber]

Also, the XD 4" is legal for both SSP and ESP, although your light loads need to make 125 PF. But I know, 40 bucks is a lot of money.

Agreed, the gun I put time & money into is now legal for divisions no one would ever select it for. It is also legal for USPSA open as far as that goes.
$40 each year is not life changing but it was a last straw kind of thing. About the same time they outlawed my gun they also outlawed some really fun targets that most clubs already had significant $'s invested in (e.g. Texas Stars) and Mr.Bill (fishing vest) Wilson decided that the pcc's he just happens to sell for big $'s fit in with a concealed carry sport. Sometimes it is just time to move on.