Going beyond defensive shooting

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  • rhino

    Grandmaster
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    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
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    Yes, i have a snub nose S@W .22 that i cant hit puddle underwater with, and a walther p22 that i cant shoot past 10 yards with, i often practice dry firing with my .45 through out the day. i feel as though my trigger control is excellent and the pistol stays on target through the pull

    and i am right hand/right eye dominant

    The problem is that what you report in terms of results suggests that your trigger control isn't as good as you believe. The most common marksmanship problem (by far) is failing to press the trigger directly to the rear without disturbing the alignment of the gun . . . until the bullet exits the muzzle. Believe it or not, a lot can happen between when you press the trigger and when the bullet actually leaves the end of the barrel. During that time, every little thing you do to disturb the gun's alignment will change the point of impact.

    What you need to see is the front sight centered in the rear sight and on target as the front sight begins to lift in recoil. When you see that, it's called "calling your shot" and it's the only way to know (other than the hole in the target) if your shot was really good. If your trigger press is good in dry fire and you keep the gun aligned with the target all the way through your press, it's likely that you're doing something immediately after the trigger press and before the bullet leaves to move the gun.

    Ultimately, it's all guesswork without watching you shoot a few rounds.


    A lot of awesome advice. I will see about the laserlyte system as my only consitent range time is at buddys property on sunday. It sucks not have a real range in bloomington. I appreciate everyones input and will be seeking a teacher near me. Unfortunatly money is a factor.

    Money is factor for just about everyone. When you say "near," keep in mind how much you want to improve. Some people won't attend training if the teacher won't hold the class in their bedroom. Driving an hour or two to learn to shoot better is a small price to pay.
     

    MohawkSlim

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    Mar 11, 2015
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    15th Street, Bedford
    Some good advice in this thread. I agree you should spend a little time with a coach or take a class. Training on the right way to do it is invaluable. Practicing something you're not even sure you're doing right might be wasted time/money. Practicing it a lot will make it harder to "unlearn" later.

    In the mean time before your class, a cheap training drill you can do is get a good clicky pen and consciously click it slowly and steadily. Let the "shot" surprise you. Only let it out until the click resets (keep your finger on it; don't flick off between shots) and if you're doing it right, you can get your breath control and probably even your eye focus to coincide with the clicks. 3,000+ reps of this will hardwire your brain to your trigger finger and every time it moves your brain will be telling it to "squeeze like we've been practicing."
     

    Bfish

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    13   0   0
    Feb 24, 2013
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    A lot of awesome advice. I will see about the laserlyte system as my only consitent range time is at buddys property on sunday. It sucks not have a real range in bloomington. I appreciate everyones input and will be seeking a teacher near me. Unfortunatly money is a factor.

    Money usually is, but it's better to spend a bit and enforce good habits then spend time and money reinforcing bad ones. A diagnostics session is well worth the investment.

    If you aren't super attached to one of your 3 carry guns, drop one and get some help. The price of one gun should get you some good training and some ammo. As BBI says, it's super worth it!
     

    Twangbanger

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    21   0   0
    Oct 9, 2010
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    ...i can confidently hit center mass quickly from short distances. however moving beyond 15 yards...it seems to be completely random where my bullet prints, if it prints at all. its becoming more frustrating...how can i break this 15 yard plateau...

    The secret to your 15+ yard shooting can probably be found in your close-range shooting. I'd recommend you stop the longer range stuff for the time being, since it sounds like a waste, and put all your rounds up close. I bet you'll find you're making all the same mistakes there. The difference is, you're just not assigning the same value to them, since all the hits at that distance are within your personal "acceptable combat standard." Regardless if the shots are "within center mass," go deeper and judge your groups. Are they round? Or are they straggling one direction or another? Get close enough to the target to where some kind of group begins to appear. Then, consider any shot that deviates from the group to be a "miss," especially if you didn't "call" it when you fired. That's when you can begin assigning reasons "why" that shot was bad. Did your eyes see the sight there when the gun went off? Make it your practice goal that NO shot up-close should land anywhere you didn't "see" it go, based on where the front sight was located at the shot. I bet if you do this, you will get into critically evaluating your shots and learning from them, much more than looking for easter eggs at 15 yards and beyond.

    This is pretty much all marksmanship in a nutshell. Study at a distance where you can see trends and separate true "random" variation from flyers where "something went wrong." And by the way, "random" is not necessarily a bad word in marksmanship, because the best groups are in fact randomly-distributed. It's the "flyers" you want to look out for. Keep moving closer and closer to the target, until this "random vs. flyer" pattern begins to emerge from the paper. If you can't see it, you're too far away for where your skills are now.
     
    Last edited:
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    Jul 29, 2016
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    Bloomington
    Ive done some more searching and have found a range offering handgun training classes, it is called Precision Gun Range and it is in spencer, does anyone have any information about this spot? Prices? Experience? General helpful tidbits and recomendations? I plan to do some shooting tomorrow and will keep all of your words in mind. I have began dry fire drills mentioned, as well as trying to pull straight back on the trigger to reduce weapon sway. If the reviews for precision gun range are good then ill be signing up and they will be getting a lotta my money. I see they have a student discount.. :yesway:
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    Ive done some more searching and have found a range offering handgun training classes, it is called Precision Gun Range and it is in spencer, does anyone have any information about this spot? Prices? Experience? General helpful tidbits and recomendations? I plan to do some shooting tomorrow and will keep all of your words in mind. I have began dry fire drills mentioned, as well as trying to pull straight back on the trigger to reduce weapon sway. If the reviews for precision gun range are good then ill be signing up and they will be getting a lotta my money. I see they have a student discount.. :yesway:

    I don't know anything about them, but definitely try to vet the instructor. There are some folks out there who barely know which end the bullet come out of and have decided they are trainers. Also, don't accept NRA instructor certifications as proof of quality. Some are top notch, some don't know the basic fundamentals themselves.

    If Coach offers his hourly training, that might be a good place to start. It's a good way to get one on one time, and he's a proven capable instructor.
     

    STEEL CORE

    Master
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    92   0   0
    Oct 29, 2008
    4,381
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    Fishers
    Practice, lots of practice and a little luck at longer ranges, if your target is too far away, they may not be able to hit you either, so seek cover and concealment, a long gun you have practiced with or run and bob in a zigzagging manner.
     
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    Jul 29, 2016
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    Bloomington
    Just got back from shooting, only got to put down 75 rounds, but i concentrated on the front sight and tried to pull directly back and stabilize the weapon through the recoil, i also fired while sitting down and resting the gun on a bag. After shooting from the sitting position my accuracy ( which still is not great ) vastly improved. Thanks for the advice ill continue to train untill i can move beyond 15 yards!
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    Just got back from shooting, only got to put down 75 rounds, but i concentrated on the front sight and tried to pull directly back and stabilize the weapon through the recoil, i also fired while sitting down and resting the gun on a bag. After shooting from the sitting position my accuracy ( which still is not great ) vastly improved. Thanks for the advice ill continue to train untill i can move beyond 15 yards!

    Keep working at it and you'll get there. Train, practice (live fire and dry fire), rinse, wash, repeat. The important thing now is to pick a gun and stick with it. There'll be plenty of time to dabble in other guns, and you may find something you shoot better than whatever you've got right now...but until you're outshooting whatever that is it's not important yet.

    [video=youtube;DN43sCyEanA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN43sCyEanA[/video]
     

    Twangbanger

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    21   0   0
    Oct 9, 2010
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    Just got back from shooting, only got to put down 75 rounds, but i concentrated on the front sight and tried to pull directly back and stabilize the weapon through the recoil, i also fired while sitting down and resting the gun on a bag. After shooting from the sitting position my accuracy ( which still is not great ) vastly improved. Thanks for the advice ill continue to train untill i can move beyond 15 yards!

    Good to hear!

    In Brian Enos' Practical Shooting book, a very well-respected volume, he advises exactly what you're doing. He says for a beginner (not saying you're a beginner or anything), the most valuable time spent is learning to shoot accurately, meaning sitting down, shooting the gun on bags, and watching how the gun reacts in recoil, actually feeling the trigger moving backwards, and just being aware of everything that is going on. He says in it that you really cannot stress this enough, if you have not put in the time to do this, you will be limited in everything else you move on to do.

    So what did you learn?
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
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    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
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    NWI
    I have been shooting for years and have dry fired thousands of times. I tried the dime drill and the hardest thing was getting the dime to balance while I extended to shooting position. I was actually surprised that I succeeded the first shot., drew back, re-extended and fired again. I just wish I could say the dime stayed there the second shot. Maybe a little glue would help.
     

    BE Mike

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    18   0   0
    Jul 23, 2008
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    New Albany
    Just got back from shooting, only got to put down 75 rounds, but i concentrated on the front sight and tried to pull directly back and stabilize the weapon through the recoil, i also fired while sitting down and resting the gun on a bag. After shooting from the sitting position my accuracy ( which still is not great ) vastly improved. Thanks for the advice ill continue to train untill i can move beyond 15 yards!
    When shooting unsupported, you must learn to accept movement. As long as the sights are aligned at the moment of discharge you will have an accurate hit. The thing is that misalignment of the sights creates an angular error (which increases the distance from the intended impact as the distance increases). When the sights are aligned the movement is perpendicular to the target and so the error doesn't increase with distance to the intended impact (target). As an example, point your index finger at a point on your computer screen and move your finger perpendicular to the point chosen. See how little it moves? Now point at the screen with your index finger at an angle to the point. See how that angle increases the error as you move back? That is why sight alignment at the time of discharge is so important. Follow through is maintaining that sight alignment through the initial recoil. I hope I didn't confuse you.
     
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    Jul 29, 2016
    1,240
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    Bloomington
    Hey guys, ive put a lot more rounds down range since i last posted in this thread. My marksmanship has definitely increased however i am not caught on a new problem, it has become obvious to me and my shooting pal that my accuracy is noticeably better with a striker fired handgun ( walther ccp, glock 19, m and p shield) than my 1911. I dont understand why, at first i considered the caliber to be the culprit however im not scared of the .45 and my first shot should be as accurate as any other caliber. Now i think it nust be the trigger? Why is this the case. Is it because the trigger is a different firing system? Is it because maybe my 1911 has a god awful trigger? I have more trigger time with my 1911 than all my other pistols combined as well. Any input is as usual much appreciated. Thanks all!
     

    cosermann

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    Aug 15, 2008
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    OP, have you done any training/received any instruction from a qualified coach/trainer in person? The reason I ask is that you're obviously doing something wrong, and we may never correctly diagnose it, even if it's something simple, over the Internet that would be immediately obvious to an experienced eye watching you shoot.

    While we can give suggestions on what the problem might be (and things to try), the quickest way to the goal you seek would be some real, bona fide training. In the long run it's cheaper than burning thousands of rounds going nowhere.
     
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    Jul 29, 2016
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    Bloomington
    I hear you! Honestly id love to sign up but the issue is time commitment right now with school and work i have, tuesday and sunday to shoot. As for the training aspect, i have not recieved formal training however i quite literally grew up in a gunshop ran by my dad who was quite the marksman. Unfortunately he mostly showed my techniques involving rifles and shotguns for shooting clay. Ive been left to figure out the hand gun portion on my own. I am making leaps and bounds but it seems to slow. I dont want to be "that guy" but i think my gun might be part to blame. Its a parts gun for sure. Maybe its just excuses
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
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    Hey guys, ive put a lot more rounds down range since i last posted in this thread. My marksmanship has definitely increased however i am not caught on a new problem, it has become obvious to me and my shooting pal that my accuracy is noticeably better with a striker fired handgun ( walther ccp, glock 19, m and p shield) than my 1911. I dont understand why, at first i considered the caliber to be the culprit however im not scared of the .45 and my first shot should be as accurate as any other caliber. Now i think it nust be the trigger? Why is this the case. Is it because the trigger is a different firing system? Is it because maybe my 1911 has a god awful trigger? I have more trigger time with my 1911 than all my other pistols combined as well. Any input is as usual much appreciated. Thanks all!

    Going back to some of the earlier posts, pick a platform and stick with it. At this stage of learning, constantly rotating between different weapon types is counterproductive.

    Read this: https://pistol-training.com/archives/70

    If you really want to get better, and you shoot striker fired better, pick a striker fired and dedicate the next month, or year, to shooting that gun. They "why" is irrelevant. It could be different sights, it could be the grip, it could be the caliber, it could be one gun is trash, it could be it doesn't like the particular bullet you're using, but who cares?

    Pick a gun, stick with it, train with it.
     
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    Jul 29, 2016
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    This has been my best grouping with the .45 at about 9 yards, slowly fired.

    http://i66.tinypic.com/2ylmbv6.jpg

    the target was shared at point blank with a lady friend. The head was my grouping.
    i feel confident i could do this at 18 yards with my ccp. I want to shoot the 1911 platform better because i understand its mechanics and i trust it. Also id rather carry a larger caliber. The recoil is also very reasonable. I just cant seem to get it down.
     

    BE Mike

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    18   0   0
    Jul 23, 2008
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    This has been my best grouping with the .45 at about 9 yards, slowly fired.

    http://i66.tinypic.com/2ylmbv6.jpg

    the target was shared at point blank with a lady friend. The head was my grouping.
    i feel confident i could do this at 18 yards with my ccp. I want to shoot the 1911 platform better because i understand its mechanics and i trust it. Also id rather carry a larger caliber. The recoil is also very reasonable. I just cant seem to get it down.
    With a single action, like the 1911, it is easier to anticipate when the hammer will fall and for some people this means that they will anticipate recoil and misalign the sights just a split second before the pistol discharges. The longer trigger pull of a striker fired pistol leaves the shooter somewhat surprised when the pistol discharges. Surprise shots are good!
     

    BE Mike

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    Jul 23, 2008
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    This has been my best grouping with the .45 at about 9 yards, slowly fired.

    http://i66.tinypic.com/2ylmbv6.jpg

    the target was shared at point blank with a lady friend. The head was my grouping.
    i feel confident i could do this at 18 yards with my ccp. I want to shoot the 1911 platform better because i understand its mechanics and i trust it. Also id rather carry a larger caliber. The recoil is also very reasonable. I just cant seem to get it down.
    I agree that that isn't a very good group at just 9 yards. If you want to improve your marksmanship, you need to attempt shooting at greater distances. The greater distances will readily show you the bad shots and is better feedback for improvement. Shooting close, masks errors in trigger control.
     

    Hop

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    Jan 21, 2008
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    Without seeing a target shot from a rest for comparison we won't know for sure if it's hardware or software.
     
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