Good Gunsmith...or Bad???

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • worddoer

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    42   0   1
    Jul 25, 2011
    1,664
    99
    Wells County
    I know the first question you are going to ask, who is it? I will eventually get to that. But I suspect that this gunsmith may be a forum member as well. So I will do my best to factually and honestly document what took place. Then each person can decide if they believe the work that was done was professional and safe.

    I own a RIA Tactical 1911 in 9mm. The pistol came from the factory with an ambi safety. I found over time that I hated the ambi safety. When engaged, there were no issues. However, when I tried to disengage the safety, the ambi side of that safety would dig into the first joint of my index finger on my right hand (my trigger finger). I found it very difficult to get a good high grip because of the ambi side of the safety. I also found it a little painful since each shot would dig the end of that safety into my joint. So I wanted to replace the ambi safety with a standard one sided safety.

    You can search my posts and threads. I even asked if the ambi safety could be altered to accommodate this since I am not a 1911 guy (this is the only 1911 I own). After some input from those who know, it was explained that the only safe way was to purchase a new single side safety and have it installed.

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/handguns/407390-remove-ambi-portion-1911-safety.html

    I like the concept of running a 1911 with my right thumb on top of the safety while shooting. Apparently I have larger sized hands (according to others) and for me, this feels far, far more comfortable. So I purchased an Ed Brown wide safety from Midway USA. I have the link below.


    Ed Brown Wide Extended Thumb Safety 1911

    You will see in the thread link above that Neil Keller was recommended. I sent an e-mail to Neil, but never received a response. Neil had done some work on something else for my father a few years ago and I recall him talking about retirement. So I assumed he was no longer in business. That is somewhat true, but not fully. I will explain this more later as Neil comes to my rescue. Because I could not reach Neil by e-mail, I started to look for another gunsmith. That was certainly an error that would cost me.

    So I ended up choosing a gunsmith that is local to me. He lives on a highway and he is easy to find with the sign in front of his house. I contacted him by e-mail and he confirmed for me that he should be able to install that safety.

    I dropped off the pistol with the purchased safety. I was given a time frame and left things at that.

    I later received a phone call (in less time than estimated, so that was good) that my pistol was done and I could pick it up.

    When I arrived to pick up my pistol, the gunsmith explained that he could not get the Ed Brown part to fit my RIA gun. So he made a modification to get some of what I desired. He assured me that it was safe and durable, that he would not release a gun to a customer if it was unsafe. He also said that since he could not install the safety that I provided, he would not charge me. He had me inspect the pistol and asked if I was satisfied with the work. Honestly, I was disappointed that the Ed Brown safety would not work. It seemed so nice. But I have heard in the past how RIA guns are more likely to be out of spec than other manufactures. So I assumed this was the cause of the issue. I did notice that the pin part of the safety was inset a fair amount, but the gunsmith again assured me that this was only cosmetic and was safe. So I consented to the work. The gunsmith then asked if I wanted the Ed Brown safety back. He said he had worked on it a little and did not think I could return it. At the time, I did not see a need to keep a safety that did not work, so I let the gunsmith keep the part. I will admit, when I dropped off and picked up the pistol, it was during my lunch break from work. So I was more concerned about getting back to work on time than a through inspection of the pistol.

    A couple of days later, once I had time, I was inspecting the pistol more closely when I noticed that the safety pin that was inset farther than I have seen before, looked like it has been hack sawed off. Although it had been blued, you could see all the rough cutting edges. The more I looked at the pistol, the more I was concerned that maybe this work was not as safe as the gunsmith assured me it was.

    I also started to think about the Ed Brown safety that I left with that gunsmith. The thought came to mind that maybe I should take the pistol somewhere else and have another gunsmith give me a 2nd opinion. So I arranged and did pick up the part from the original gunsmith.

    While picking up the part, I did not voice my concerns. I was starting to suspect Bubba style work and if that is the case, I did not want the original gunsmith to Bubba my gun up even more trying to "make it right". However, I was amazed by what he did to the Ed Brown safety once I picked it up. It looked like he set a tribe of angry metal beavers loose on the thing. At this point, I am growing more and more concerned about the safety of this pistol.

    This is where Neil Keller comes to the rescue.

    Kustom Ballistics

    From what I hear, he was a "master gunsmith" (if there is such a thing, my description, not his) and he built 1911's from scratch in his shop and is an authority on 1911's. Although I could not reach him by e-mail, I called and did reach him by phone. I did confirm that he is retired, but he does take the small odd job now and then. After explaining my concerns, he was happy to help me. He did say that the website is not even supposed to be up anymore, but whoever used to help him in the past left the area and he can't seem to get the old website off the net.

    I took my pistol to him and after some amazement at the level of Bubbafication, he said he can fix it. I showed him the Ed Brown safety and he commented on the level of incompetence displayed by the work done on that old safety.

    Anyway, I dropped off the pistol and he called me a few hours later to let me know he was done.

    I picked up my pistol the next day and Neil commented that the original gunsmith had damaged the Ed Brown safety so much that he had to peen the safety to get it to work. He said if I had any issues, it would require another safety as the first one I purchased would be unsalvageable at that point. But he would be happy to help me get another one installed if that was needed. He did comment that my pistol was not out of spec and he could not figure out why the original gunsmith had let the angry metal beavers loose on that part.

    What concerned both Neil and myself is what he handed me before I left. It seems the original gunsmith did not install a one sided safety as requested. He took an ambi safety (not sure if factory part from my gun or another used part) and hack sawed off the ambi portion of the safety and just installed the short little shaft. Photos of parts are below.

    View attachment 46351

    View attachment 46352

    View attachment 46353

    At that point I was happy that Neil found and fixed the problem. The safety seemed to be working and having that wide Ed Brown safety on the gun totally changed the ergos for me. It went from a very uncomfortable gun to shoot to a very comfortable gun to shoot. When I was at the range, I was getting much better groups. And with the much higher grip this new setup allows, the muzzle flip was far less for me.

    However, after about 200 rounds or so, the thumb safety no longer seems to be working. Even with all of Neils great efforts, it seems that the original gunsmith damaged that safety so much, it failed.

    I am not upset with Neil in the slightest. I appreciate that he tried to save the old safety to prevent unnecessary costs. I am purchasing another safety that is exactly the same, and I will have Neil install it. As best as I can tell, this man knows the 1911 like the back of his hand.

    What I am upset is at the level of apparent incompetence the original gunsmith showed and how his assurances of safety were simply untrue. According to Neil, the cut off ambi safety that was installed could have easily failed when the other part of the shaft fell out. This would have allowed both the thumb as well as the grip safety to fail. That is bad, bad mojo. And someone could have been hurt if not for diligently following the 4 golden rules (feel a little better Kirk Freeman???).

    Let alone the fact that now I have to spend another $38 to get another safety because the first gunsmith seemed incapable of admitting his inability to properly install the part.

    Who is the original gunsmith that I speak of above???


    Mike Sweney
    BMG Repair
    www.bmgrepair.com


    Soooooooo.....what say you. Does this look like good or bad work from the original gunsmith? Would you take your items to him to be worked on?
     
    Last edited:

    brokemule

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 28, 2013
    25
    3
    Ossian, IN
    I know of and have seen some of Neil"s work, it is definitely TOP NOTCH! I too was wondering about the other gunsmith and what kind of work he put out. After hearing and seeing the issues you had, I will run the other way!
     

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    He admits on his website that he is a ATI Armorer.. A Armorer is not a Gunsmith... That would be a 800 dollar home study course and if he passes he receives a shoulder patch.. I would say that you got off easy and cheap.. It could have been really really bad.. And unrepairable... The American Gunsmithing Institute, responding to numerous requests from law enforcement agencies, officers, gunsmiths, and individual shooters, announces the opportunity to enroll in a home study Law Enforcement Armorer's Course. This certified course covers all of the current commonly used law enforcement handguns, shotguns and patrol rifles.A tough 500+ question examination of the material caps out the course We wanted to make sure you were paying attention!Pass the test and you will be rewarded with a certificate and a sew-on patch to validate your accomplishment.Training ModulesAccurate firearm disassembly and reassemblyProper firearm care and cleaning detailsWhat adjustments to avoidHow to identify problem defects and damageMaking sure the firearm performs to factory or owner specificationsHow to properly check to make sure a firearm is safe for operationWhats in the Box?The 15 armorer courses in a dedicated binderOnline test access and certification and (upon successful completion of the online test) a Certified Law Enforcement Armorer patch.



    He's not a Gunsmith in any way shape or form.. Becoming a Master Gunsmith normally involves at least 4 years worth of School and a few years of working under another Master.. Well that's what two of the guys I grew up went through to become Master Gunsmiths.. Here's another question about this supposed gunsmith, does he have the correct FFL license to keep firearms overnight ???Did you at least see his shoulder patch ????
     

    Alpo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 23, 2014
    13,877
    113
    Indy Metro Area
    In modern times, it is sometimes difficult to find the right guy to do the job. I've known a lot of smiths in my day and some are no more than scope jockeys and even then I wouldn't let them mount a scope for me. I know some fine 1911 smiths and schooling has nothing to do with their skills. Many are self-taught using the old axiom: The way you become a great smith is to break a lot of parts. A competent 1911 smith will eat his mistakes and never let them out of the shop.

    I knew a guy who was well-respected at Perazzi, but I'd never let him near one of my Glocks.

    Not all problems show up immediately, but a good smith should stand behind his work. I knew that if I ever worked on a firearm, I "owned" that firearm forever, no matter what was subsequently done to it.
     

    PGRChaplain

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Jan 13, 2011
    3,778
    83
    Waynedale (FT Wayne)
    There's no Test to acquire a FFL Gunsmith License. All the Hydrodippers have them but I wouldn't want them Grinding on one of my 1911's. I don't have any Ambi Safetys but recall the Right Grip being cut to retain that half of the Ambi safety. What was going to retain that half of the Ambi after he cut it off? A Gunsmith is a Craftsman that can make you any part of a Firearm. It sounds like he has Service Experiance, which mostly involves changing Parts on nonfunctional Weapons. Sorry for your Bad Experiance, Thanks for the Honest Explanation of the Problem!
     

    Chance

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 25, 2009
    1,040
    129
    Berne
    Many of the "claims" made by you original "smith" are invalid. He is not the armorer for the Adams County Sheriff's Department. There are reasons that he was let go from that position. You are not the first to experience the "quality" of his work. Be careful and always get references. Neil is great but at 80 years old he doesn't do as many projects as he once did.
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,155
    83
    Huntertown, IN
    And to all who have negative repped me for saying you can't learn to be a 1911 gunsmith on YouTube..nyahh, nyahh. I am vindicated.

    I am glad Neil fixed it for you. He is one of the great gunsmiths.
     

    AllenM

    Diamond Collision Inc. Avon.
    Industry Partner
    Rating - 100%
    133   0   0
    Apr 20, 2008
    10,399
    113
    Avon
    I can not imagine anybody with the least amount of common sense and self respect sending something like that out the door. I usually refrain from bad mouthing anybody but there is no excuse for what he did.
     

    worddoer

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    42   0   1
    Jul 25, 2011
    1,664
    99
    Wells County
    He admits on his website that he is a ATI Armorer.. A Armorer is not a Gunsmith... That would be a 800 dollar home study course and if he passes he receives a shoulder patch.. I would say that you got off easy and cheap.. It could have been really really bad.. And unrepairable... The American Gunsmithing Institute, responding to numerous requests from law enforcement agencies, officers, gunsmiths, and individual shooters, announces the opportunity to enroll in a home study Law Enforcement Armorer's Course. This certified course covers all of the current commonly used law enforcement handguns, shotguns and patrol rifles.A tough 500+ question examination of the material caps out the course We wanted to make sure you were paying attention!Pass the test and you will be rewarded with a certificate and a sew-on patch to validate your accomplishment.Training ModulesAccurate firearm disassembly and reassemblyProper firearm care and cleaning detailsWhat adjustments to avoidHow to identify problem defects and damageMaking sure the firearm performs to factory or owner specificationsHow to properly check to make sure a firearm is safe for operationWhats in the Box?The 15 armorer courses in a dedicated binderOnline test access and certification and (upon successful completion of the online test) a Certified Law Enforcement Armorer patch.



    He's not a Gunsmith in any way shape or form.. Becoming a Master Gunsmith normally involves at least 4 years worth of School and a few years of working under another Master.. Well that's what two of the guys I grew up went through to become Master Gunsmiths.. Here's another question about this supposed gunsmith, does he have the correct FFL license to keep firearms overnight ???Did you at least see his shoulder patch ????

    Not sure if he has an FFL. Did not ask. And I never really looked for a shoulder patch. So I can't remember if he had one or not.
     

    worddoer

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    42   0   1
    Jul 25, 2011
    1,664
    99
    Wells County
    There's no Test to acquire a FFL Gunsmith License. All the Hydrodippers have them but I wouldn't want them Grinding on one of my 1911's. I don't have any Ambi Safetys but recall the Right Grip being cut to retain that half of the Ambi safety. What was going to retain that half of the Ambi after he cut it off? A Gunsmith is a Craftsman that can make you any part of a Firearm. It sounds like he has Service Experiance, which mostly involves changing Parts on nonfunctional Weapons. Sorry for your Bad Experiance, Thanks for the Honest Explanation of the Problem!


    The factory ambi safety did not use the grip retention method. The factory one on my RIA used the extended sear pin method of retention. The sear pin is extended past the right side of the frame and it has a little groove in it. The groove corresponds with the ambi side of the safety and keeps it retained. From what I am told, this is a more solid and reliable version of ambi safety retention. I think this picture helps to illustrate that...this is not my gun, just a photo online that looks just like how my gun did with the ambi installed.

    RIA-safety.jpg


    In relation to the retention of that short section of pin, that is the big concern. There is nothing to hold that short section in place. It could fall out at any time. And once it did, the manual safety as well as the grip safety would probably be inoperative.

    When Mike removed the ambi side of the safety, he installed a standard sear pin so it no longer extended past the frame. Although the rest of the work done was incompetent, at least that part of the job was done correctly.
     
    Last edited:

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    And to all who have negative repped me for saying you can't learn to be a 1911 gunsmith on YouTube..nyahh, nyahh. I am vindicated.

    I am glad Neil fixed it for you. He is one of the great gunsmiths.

    You have been given neg rep over that ?? Arggggg.. The children here are unbelievable at times.. I've been given neg from two childish members myself.. It's funny to me when it happens.. :dunno:
     

    worddoer

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    42   0   1
    Jul 25, 2011
    1,664
    99
    Wells County
    Many of the "claims" made by you original "smith" are invalid. He is not the armorer for the Adams County Sheriff's Department. There are reasons that he was let go from that position. You are not the first to experience the "quality" of his work. Be careful and always get references. Neil is great but at 80 years old he doesn't do as many projects as he once did.

    Finding a competent gunsmith now days is tough. Other than Neil Keller, the only other one I feel that is trustworthy is Allen M. And if Neil was not available, I would have used Allen to get it fixed right.

    Sadly, there is no authoritative resource to reference. Just like cars, there are good mechanics, and bad ones. And the dealerships are not always the best either. Just one of those things in life I guess.

    This is why I normally don't buy guns that require gunsmith work. I prefer firearms that I can self service. I own Glocks, Berettas, Rugers, AR's, ect. All of those I can work on myself. For the most part with those styles of guns, parts are plentiful, cheap, and easy to replace. But just needed to feel and own one of those 1911's that everyone raves about. And now that the ergos are fixed for me with this new safety (once the new one is installed and it's working), then this pistol might just be my range favorite.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    If I can not fix it myself I will sit down with AllenM and the issue gets resolved.
    I have broken/wasted my fair share of parts in my quest for knowledge.
    Learn something new everyday.
     

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    IIRC, for a FFL gunsmith to keep your gun overnight, you would have had to fill out a 4473 to get your gun back.

    :dunno: I have never filled out a 4473 to get a firearm back from a Gunsmith.
    They just get logged in,, and logged back out to you..

    Edit,, from atf's website.

    Is an ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm?

    No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom it was received.

    [27 CFR 478.124(a) and 478.147]
     

    USMC-Johnson

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Aug 27, 2013
    1,007
    48
    Fort Wayne
    IIRC, for a FFL gunsmith to keep your gun overnight, you would have had to fill out a 4473 to get your gun back.

    Not quite true on this one. If i a firearm is checked in for gun smithing it can be given back to the original person without the completion of a 4473. However it still must be entered into the FFL's bound book and than disposed of from said FFL's bound book.
     

    Bigtanker

    Cuddles
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Aug 21, 2012
    21,688
    151
    Osceola
    Not quite true on this one. If i a firearm is checked in for gun smithing it can be given back to the original person without the completion of a 4473. However it still must be entered into the FFL's bound book and than disposed of from said FFL's bound book.

    Thanks for the info.
     
    Top Bottom