Guns DO Just Go Off: Chicago Edition

[Txlur]

Because they can all do it. Freaky things happen with guns that is why we should respect them and be aware that they are dangerous.

Standard drill at Gunsite used to be (and I think Ken Campbell still does it) is to fire a Smith & Wesson auto pistol with the magazine out. Overengineering cannot overcome accidental discharges, especially when there is stupidity involved.

I am all for not coonfingering, but riddle me this, is there ANY chance a striker or hammered firearm goes off without being touched, moved, jostled, or dropped? Like in a case, safe, or otherwise untouched, left alone?

I doubt it, and if it could, no one would use a safe for easy access in their house, because it could potentially just go off while you are at work, or shoot you in the foot while you walk around your room. I think this is what the INGOers are saying.

I'm not talking about loading or unloading. The machine is safe, it is always improper handling, which includes not loading/unloading in a safe manner, dropping your firearm, or leaving it in a loose garment to move around as it pleases. The mechanics are safe. The user is not.

 

[Mackey]

Sounds like "coonfingering" to me. As they say, "there are no ADs just NDs".
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]

Funny pic. Coonfingering. I love that term but the above is a lemur is it not?
Thank would be Lemurfingering.

But anyway, my pocket carry is just fine. A holster doesn't always force the business end of the gun in a safe place. The only fail-safe solution would be a gun ban.
So...
No solution.

 

[PeaShooter]

Because they can all do it. Freaky things happen with guns that is why we should respect them and be aware that they are dangerous.

Standard drill at Gunsite used to be (and I think Ken Campbell still does it) is to fire a Smith & Wesson auto pistol with the magazine out. Overengineering cannot overcome accidental discharges, especially when there is stupidity involved.

He didn't do it in my class a couple of years ago.

I don't understand what this is supposed to prove? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious. Unless the pistol has a magazine disconnect safety (which most do not) then I see nothing unusual about it firing with the magazine out.

It is the one in the chamber that I am worried about, not the ones in a magazine. You have to make sure that then chamber is empty and that the magazine is removed, both visually and digitally (coonfinger). And also with no ammunition in the area.

 

[dom1104]

I wonder what Kirks carry gun is.

My guess is, a unloaded, double action only revolver with no hammer spur.

Speedloader in the pocket.

OWB holster, with steel lined deflection plate.

Draw gun, load w/ speedloader, fire.

 

[J_Wales]

Because they can all do it. Freaky things happen with guns that is why we should respect them and be aware that they are dangerous.

Standard drill at Gunsite used to be (and I think Ken Campbell still does it) is to fire a Smith & Wesson auto pistol with the magazine out. Overengineering cannot overcome accidental discharges, especially when there is stupidity involved.

I have never had a firearm do something "freaky".

I had the magazine safety removed from a Browning HP to enable firing it without the magazine inserted. Still, the pistol does nothing freaky.

As an experiment, I loaded a 1911 and chambered a round. Then I placed it, cocked and locked, on a table. It sat there for days on end... weeks... it did nothing.

After some time, I put a loaded Glock by the 1911. I wanted to see what would happen because I heard some strange idea about how Glocks and 1911s don't get along. Well, there the two pistols sat for several more days. Neither assaulted the other.

For a short time, I put some little signs by the pistols. A sign by the 1911 read, "Glocks suck" and a sign by the Glock read, "1911s suck". I wanted to see if I could encourage them to assault one another. Still, nothing happened.

I came to the conclusion that guns don't do things that are "freaky".

If nothing else, those little signs should have really pissed off the pistols, but they didn't.

I came to the conclusion that the guns did not do anything because guns are inanimate objects.

Of course, it could just be that guns cannot read!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Unless the pistol has a magazine disconnect safety (which most do not) then I see nothing unusual about it firing with the magazine out.

Smith & Wesson auto pistols have magazine disconnect safeties. Gunsite takes time to show students that their "safe" guns are dangerous and can still bite.

If you re-take Ken's class, ask him to show you.

I wonder what Kirks carry gun is.

You don't have to guess as I have posted photos of them on INGO.

I carry them in holsters and I do not think that they are safe.

I came to the conclusion that guns don't do things that are "freaky".

How many threads of guns firing when dropped do I have to post?

How many dead gun writers will convince you?

How many slam fires in the parking lot threads will I have to post?

How many slam fires resulting in injury or death will I have to post?

Have many exploding guns threads will I have to post?

I've posted all of those including a pistol discharging inside a range range and now a purse. Guns are inanimate objects but they only have one job and that is to go bang. Our guns go bang when we do not want them to. Be advised.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I am all for not coonfingering, but riddle me this, is there ANY chance a striker or hammered firearm goes off without being touched, moved, jostled, or dropped? Like in a case, safe, or otherwise untouched, left alone?

Do you mean in the history of firearms or within last 50 years or what?

Do you mean some numbnuts tyro gunsmith on a 1911, like shaving down the hammer hooks or sear nose failed, a botched trigger job? Possible I guess under J Wales scenario.

But you do know why there is a Series 80 Colt, right? Because guns do freaky things.

You do know why some pistol trainers will not appendix carry a Smith & Wesson M&P? Right, because guns do freaky things.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We need to ask this guy:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLwYtF2-pLk[/ame]

 

[Txlur]

Do you mean in the history of firearms or within last 50 years or what?

Do you mean some numbnuts tyro gunsmith on a 1911, like shaving down the hammer hooks or sear nose failed, a botched trigger job? Possible I guess under J Wales scenario.

But you do know why there is a Series 80 Colt, right? Because guns do freaky things.

You do know why some pistol trainers will not appendix carry a Smith & Wesson M&P? Right, because guns do freaky things.

I get it. Like aftermarket remote starts light cars on fire. I get the appendix carry thing as well, and choose a good holster and non modified j-frame for when i have to carry up there. None of my firearms in my safes are firing. Nor my father's, or grandfather's.

Your other examples are just more user error, save the corrosion over time on a hammer firearm without the pin safety, allowing discharge. I'll give that one, but isn't that kinda a bit of mistreatment?. All firearms ate dangerous because all firearms are loaded, true, but that does not mean they just go off by themselves.

Misuse, mishandling, bad smithing - none of that is on the metal or plastic. That's on the user. I do dig your posts and message about coonfingering.

 

[NHT3]

IF it was a Glock I am absolutely CERTAIN that it didn't go off without something pressing the trigger. The firing pin safety physically blocks the firing pin from moving forward and the cruciform of the trigger bar is supported by the trigger mechanism housing until the trigger moves rearward.
I would really like to hear what hypothetical chain of events would cause a Glock to have an AD? Other than the afore mentioned "Lemurfingering"
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer

[/FONT]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

but that does not mean they just go off by themselves.

Again, for emphasis, yes, they can and and do go off my themselves. I just posted a story about it. The cold body of Steve Malloy proves it.

How many threads have I started about someone loading or unloading and the pistol slam fires, 20 maybe?

How many times have I told about the 870 at Shootrite? Another 20?

We as a gun culture can be far too caviler with our guns. We need to remember that they are dangerous. We just need them to be dangerous at the right time.

 

[Armed-N-Ready]

Guns don't go off by themselves.

You will only prove to me that guns can go off by themselves when you show me a gun sitting on a table that goes off without human interaction or some action causing the gun to fire. Something has to cause the gun to fire. Yes, a gun can fire when you unload or load a round. It did not go off by itself, some action caused it to fire. As for guns not being safe, duh. No, guns are not safe when handled carelessly or without respect. If you obey the 4 basics you will be fine. Knives deserve the same respect also. Same principle if you are careless you can get hurt.

 

[jesse485]

Again, for emphasis, yes, they can and and do go off my themselves. I just posted a story about it. The cold body of Steve Malloy proves it.

The only thing Steve's cold body proves is that a gun designed over 100 years ago, without any sort of drop safety, is not drop safe. Does this surprise anyone? Modern pistols, with drop safeties (some with more than one) won't suffer this issue. Treating completely different types of firearms as though they were the same is misleading, and doesn't help your point.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The only thing Steve's cold body proves is that a gun designed over 100 years ago, without any sort of drop safety, is not drop safe.

Right because nothing like that would ever happen with a gun designed less than 100 years ago, especially if it is designed in Austria.

Misfiring Cop Who Hit Toddler Attempts to Shed Light on the Matter: Gothamist

Freaky, weird stuff happens with guns, all guns. It is best that we treat guns with respect and not be so blase as the officer in the initial post.

 

[NHT3]

I think we were discussing an event in Chicago and have pretty much decided it's very likely it was a Glock. I'm still waiting to hear the scenario that causes a Glock to have an AD ?
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]

 

[kjf48197]

I carry a glock and have done so for about 15 years it has never had an AD. Everyone knows that if you treat the gun like it is loaded all of the time it is safe. A gun in a purse cant be safe there is too much stuff that can get through the trigger guard and possibly cause an AD. Unless of course it is in a proper holster or a seperate pocket. I cant say what happened but it was careless no matter how it happened.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm still waiting to hear the scenario that causes a Glock to have an AD ?

I did not give you a scenario; I gave an actual event of a Glock discharging after being dropped by a cop.

 

[bartb]

The only thing Steve's cold body proves is that a gun designed over 100 years ago, without any sort of drop safety, is not drop safe. Does this surprise anyone? Modern pistols, with drop safeties (some with more than one) won't suffer this issue. Treating completely different types of firearms as though they were the same is misleading, and doesn't help your point.

The problem is nothing mechanical is 100%. It can come pretty damn close, but not 100%. Drop safeties are a last best resort.

Something bad can happen, all it takes is one careless move. We must attention to the 4 rules and find a good holster. With those always in mind we not see a negligent discharge and hopefully we can manage any freakyness that may or may not happen.

 

[jesse485]

I did not give you a scenario; I gave an actual event of a Glock discharging after being dropped by a cop.

Do you believe the cop's account of said story? Considering "my gun fell and went off" absolves the officer of wrongdoing, and negligent discharge does not, I smell a rat. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying its HIGHLY unlikely. Especially in a scenario where the officer's action could hold him civilly, and possibly criminally responsible. I'm sure he doesn't want to admit that he's responsible for almost killing a small child.

 

[Rob377]

I did not give you a scenario; I gave an actual event of a Glock discharging after being dropped by a cop.

No, you gave an actual example of a guy making a lame bs excuse, (note story mentions piles of empty beer cans)taking advantage of the fiction that guns "just go off", even though his version of events is mechanically impossible.


I know the defense bar denies the concept of personal responsibility, but We should really stop spreading tolerance of bs "it just went off" excuses.