Guns Shops that aren't willing to deal....

[Robert Richardson]

The OP didn't buy it and the dealer was left with an overpriced gun gathering dust still looking for a sucker.

I did read the OP post and I know he didn't buy it. Since we don't have both sides of the story, I don't know how the conversation went. I don't know what gun or store we are even talking about. I don't know how much the dealer has invested in the gun.
What I am saying is: If you want it real bad, BUY IT! If not, DON'T! If I put something up far sale at $XXX and someone tells me they can buy it for $XXX somewhere else, I will tell them to go buy it. Just because someone might sell theirs cheaper, doesn't mean I have to. I'm sure we all have guns that we paid too much for but, we wanted it then and we bought it. Just sayin.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm just happy if I can persuade them to stop shooting the **** with the good ol boys long enough to show me something.

Hey. I like being the good ol' boy. I don't have any hair, so I can't hang out at the barbershop to be around other men.

My favorite LGS of all time is 256 Sport & Garden outside of Austin. You couldn't go in there to buy a box of ammo without it being a 2 hour conversational adventure. It wasn't a place to go if you were in a hurry. Dale's sort of like a raven, he starts to do something, sees something shiny, and starts after that instead until the next shiny thing draws him off the first shiny thing...and soon you're hearing about if the Mayans were visited by angels when you'd asked if he had any 15 round magazines for a CZ.

Tell him you're in a hurry results in the same treatment, only with a "ok....hold on a second, let me tell you this one thing..." preamble.

I can buy a gun anywhere. I can't hear a Dale story anywhere but 256. (Although you can hear stories ABOUT Dale and his stories throughout much of south central Indiana...)

 

[magus]

Another factor that plays into my situation, perhaps more than most, is that it is much harder for a woman to even get waited on at a gun shop or a gun show. T-Star and I both have had the same experience at NW IN LGS's and gun shows. The salespeople will overlook us and fall over themselves to wait on male customers. We may know exactly what we want and have cash in hand, but we walk out of many places without even being helped.

This is one of the reasons we go to USDS. It was the first place to actually pay attention to my wife as a customer and not an accessory to me. I wish more of our hobby would embrace that the face of firearms is changing. Hell even my once-anti mother is taking a handgun course in a few weeks.

Chad and his crew are a great bunch with pricing that is great. They aren't as low as online, but they are fair and honest about why they set them as such. I've friends in the gaming business and the business model is shockingly close to firearms brick-n-morter vs. online. Hell even the term FLGS is also used. So I know some of the trials and tribulations that local stores go through.

That industry/hobby is also seeing their key demographic change with many more females entering. Anecdoteally; my eyeball count for GenCon's breakdown was ~85:15% male:female when it first came to Indy. That's risin to ~35-40% last year! It's simply amazing to me as an old nerd to see that many females in a setting where they were "unicorns" or there because they were dragged along.

Ach anyways slightly off-topic there... If a price is agreeable to me and reasonable I'll not haggle and spare both parties that dance. If I were doing a trade-in I might see what can be done there for value against the new item.

 

[indiucky]

Hey. I like being the good ol' boy. I don't have any hair, so I can't hang out at the barbershop to be around other men.

My favorite LGS of all time is 256 Sport & Garden outside of Austin. You couldn't go in there to buy a box of ammo without it being a 2 hour conversational adventure. It wasn't a place to go if you were in a hurry. Dale's sort of like a raven, he starts to do something, sees something shiny, and starts after that instead until the next shiny thing draws him off the first shiny thing...and soon you're hearing about if the Mayans were visited by angels when you'd asked if he had any 15 round magazines for a CZ.

Tell him you're in a hurry results in the same treatment, only with a "ok....hold on a second, let me tell you this one thing..." preamble.

I can buy a gun anywhere. I can't hear a Dale story anywhere but 256. (Although you can hear stories ABOUT Dale and his stories throughout much of south central Indiana...)

About 14 years ago the wife and I were living in Scottsburg....I left work in Louisville at 2 pm, got to Scottsburg at 2:45 pm...Told the wife I was going to Dale's to pick up a revolver Dale and I had discussed over the phone and had come together on a price on....I told her I had to hurry as Dale closed at 6 pm....She said, "Are you trying to tell me it is going to take three hours for you to pick up a gun you know you want?" I said, "As strange as it sounds, yes...I"ll see you around 6:30pm..."

He changed his hours and it is hard for me to get up there and see him and Eerie like I used too...The last time I saw them was at BPS after the 2008 election...He and Eerie had a huge shopping cart of ammo he had come down and bought for his shop...He wasn't even going to raise the price on the ammo except to cover gas and tax expense....I told him that seems like a lot of trouble and he said, "My customers are going to need ammo and I want to have it for them..." They are "good people".....I think Dale is a Rose Holman graduate...I picked up a small limited edition U of K Press book one time on Harlan, Kentucky during the depression and gave it to Eerie and the next time I came in she told me how many of the people that were in the book that were kin and that she knew....She has some pretty cool stories as well!!!!

 

[NyleRN]

Hey. I like being the good ol' boy. I don't have any hair, so I can't hang out at the barbershop to be around other men.

My favorite LGS of all time is 256 Sport & Garden outside of Austin. You couldn't go in there to buy a box of ammo without it being a 2 hour conversational adventure. It wasn't a place to go if you were in a hurry. Dale's sort of like a raven, he starts to do something, sees something shiny, and starts after that instead until the next shiny thing draws him off the first shiny thing...and soon you're hearing about if the Mayans were visited by angels when you'd asked if he had any 15 round magazines for a CZ.

Tell him you're in a hurry results in the same treatment, only with a "ok....hold on a second, let me tell you this one thing..." preamble.

I can buy a gun anywhere. I can't hear a Dale story anywhere but 256. (Although you can hear stories ABOUT Dale and his stories throughout much of south central Indiana...)

You couldn't be any more accurate. Why do you think the bar stools are there?

Don't go out to hair's unless you got 2-3hrs to kill. He is good dude though

 

[Cemetery-man]

I'm sure we all have guns that we paid too much for but, we wanted it then and we bought it. Just sayin.

Oh God yes! Too many to admit to though.

 

[indyjs]

I despise the wheelers and dealers. It is a cultural thing. If you want an item at a set price, go where said item is advertised and don't waste my time

 

[churchmouse]

I despise the wheelers and dealers. It is a cultural thing. If you want an item at a set price, go where said item is advertised and don't waste my time

If you watch any TV all the Reality car shows are constantly about "Profit"
It is being ingrained in everyone that everything is worth more than you paid for it.

 

[Libertarian01]

Doug made some good points. I worked at the highest volume store in MI. We had been in business since 1972 and in that time had developed long standing relationships with manufacturers and distributors. We were able to order direct from browning, remington, benelli, beretta, hk, bushmaster, kimber, and a few others. In fact quite often if a customer was looking for something the mfg told them to call us. We would get first dibs on closeouts that we would buy in volume like when browning/winchester were closing out all the model 52 rifles, or reissues of the model 12 shotguns etc, we would just stack them upstairs and put a few out here and there or put some on gunbroker when that started. These relationships allowed us to get lower prices than a smaller LGS would get but even more important was the terms we would get which were quite long and allowed us to pay them back over a longer period of time. These terms allowed us to go to the shot show and place ridiculous orders for the year but as the stock came in we had a long time to actually pay for it. Another reason for their success was the one year layaway which was unprecedented for the area. We asked for 10% down and one payment a month and most didn't keep it in a year anyway as they tended to be a little impatient, I know I am. But this allowed the average joe to get a more expensive browning or that wilson combat (with standard guns there was no extra fee but for some like say a Grade 6 browning or a wilson there was an extra charge). Most dealers have at most a 90 day layaway which is still pretty useless if you want a more expensive gun, probably good for a glock but if you can't pay cash outright than 90 days won't help much if it's more expensive than that. The lower prices and layaway brought in tons of customers but we sucked at customer service and that was their reputation that still holds to this day. The owner was great but his sons that came in after he did all the hard work treated customers like crap like they were an inconvenience and there attitude was where else are they going to go? Things there are different now I can see it when I stop in, less customers and they got rid of the year layaway, probably the biggest reason customers put up with their nonsense. The closest rival Williams which some may know from their sights etc. in the meantime revamped and expanded their store, got more competitive with pricing and now is building an indoor range took the initiative and is very busy when I stop in. My old store is still dingy and hasn't changed much since I left in 2003, the last son is retiring today and a nephew is taking over but he's young and hasn't had a good role model so who knows. So yes older established gun shops do get better pricing/terms from the distributors but newer shops can compete in different ways and take advantage when the older shops start becoming complacent and take customers for granted.

To Drillsgt,

It sounds like the store owner you worked for was shooting for, and achieving, competition on both price and service. Good for him!

He gave customers through a large layaway plan a tool to buy something that would normally be out of their price range. I would bet that would bring back customers who wanted a more expensive firearm but knew they couldn't afford it anywhere but your store.

Once you mentioned "the sons taking over" I immediately thought "Oh ", as that can be a good thing or a really bad thing! What daddy wants to be a family business doesn't mean it will make a good one if the kids aren't really invested in continuing to build upon the previous generations success. For some good insight there listen to Dave Ramsey on the radio. Sometimes he gets a call from an entrepreneur who is talking about a family owned business and has some good, standard advice there. It doesn't mean the kids have to do things exactly the same way. It does mean that they must understand what made their parents business a success and understand how changes they make will impact the company.

You also hit on a point I had ignored, the LGS's building a relationship with the suppliers. While the ability to buy in bulk is good, making nice with the manufacturer and being known for paying your bills will get you good deals that can be passed on to your customers.

It was a great, firsthand story you told. Thanks for sharing.

Regards and Happy New Year,

Doug

 

[Hoosierdood]

Apparently, some of us just don't understand how a retail shop operates. Here are a couple things to consider.

1. Not all LGS buy from the same distributors. I know who my LGS orders from. I have also talked to a half dozen other gun shops and asked who they order from (since my LGS does do some wholesale sales) and they are all different.

2. Average markup on new firearms is around 10-15%. Think about this for a second. Average markup at the big box retailers on just about any item is 40%. That means your LGS isn't making a whole lot of money on each sale.

3. There is absolutely NO brick and mortar retail store that can compete with online prices. This doesn't just apply to gun shops. How many times have you ordered from Amazon, because you can always get it cheaper? Online gun dealers will always be cheaper because they buy at cheaper prices due to volume, they don't have the overhead, nor do they have all the paperwork required for gun sales. Some gun stores price their guns as low as they can go and there is no negotiating.

4. If you walk into my LGS and ask for a cash price, I will probably knock a few bucks off. I will always do everything I can to get you the best deal possible. However, if I take the price down too far, I wont have a job, and my company won't be in business. There is only so much I can do.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Apparently, some of us just don't understand how a retail shop operates. Here are a couple things to consider.

1. Not all LGS buy from the same distributors. I know who my LGS orders from. I have also talked to a half dozen other gun shops and asked who they order from (since my LGS does do some wholesale sales) and they are all different.

2. Average markup on new firearms is around 10-15%. Think about this for a second. Average markup at the big box retailers on just about any item is 40%. That means your LGS isn't making a whole lot of money on each sale.

3. There is absolutely NO brick and mortar retail store that can compete with online prices. This doesn't just apply to gun shops. How many times have you ordered from Amazon, because you can always get it cheaper? Online gun dealers will always be cheaper because they buy at cheaper prices due to volume, they don't have the overhead, nor do they have all the paperwork required for gun sales. Some gun stores price their guns as low as they can go and there is no negotiating.

4. If you walk into my LGS and ask for a cash price, I will probably knock a few bucks off. I will always do everything I can to get you the best deal possible. However, if I take the price down too far, I wont have a job, and my company won't be in business. There is only so much I can do.

What's the average mark up on used guns?

 

[Hoosierdood]

What's the average mark up on used guns?

That depends on the store. Our store prices used guns slightly higher that what they are worth, knowing that there will usually be some serious haggling on used guns. It doesn't matter what we bought them for, it only matters what it is worth. There is no set percentage. I think that most of our used guns are overpriced, and I have been known to give some really good deals on our used guns.

FWIW, used guns make much more money than new guns. This is the case in every gun store.

 

[magus]

FWIW, used guns make much more money than new guns. This is the case in every gun store.

University book stores are the same way.

 

[kludge]

To Kludge,

While I haven't dealt with Walmart beyond as a customer, I have another skill that is equally good: Doug can read!

Specifically, "The Walmart Effect" by Charles Fishman. In this book Mr. Fishman details time and again where Walmart, due to its size and power can dictate prices to suppliers, especially after they have become addicted to the cash flow.

If that isn't enough, in the textbook "Essentials of Strategic Management" by Charles Hill an Garth Jones they back up this idea. On Page #4, in the running case study of Walmart they explain, "As Walmart grew larger, the sheer size and purchasing power of the company enabled it to drive down the prices that it paid suppliers, passing on the savings to customers in the form of lower prices..."

Businesses love consistency...

I'm not arguing the buying power or business models, just that WalMart doesn't always sell they volumes they say say they will and when they cut/push out their PO's the mfg doesn't usually get to renegotiate the price. The mfg also gets to take back product into inventory, which REALLY screws up manufacturing and cash flow and all that nice predictability and consistency, which has put a lot of American companies out of business. It may even be what has been wrong with Remlin for the past several years.

Like the AR lowers for $49 at Brownells from DPMS that have been "on sale" in every email and banner ad on every gun site for a few months now. An item that you couldn't touch any where at 5 times the price just a couple years ago. Somewhere there is probably a DPMS exec who made the decision to make too many. We sit here and complain that after 6 years of Obama no one has built a new .22LR ammo factory. Maybe they are the smart ones?

(ETA: sorry, I mean Bushmaster.)

The orders from thousands of local gun shops and a few big distributors will average out to something predictable, but when Walmart cuts their forecast by 5,000 units a month and makes you take back 10,000 units into your inventory, you end up having to shut down production and lay people off. Cuz you have all your money tied up in inventory and overhead that you had to make/take on when you signed the WalMart contract.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

FWIW, used guns make much more money than new guns. This is the case in every gun store.

That's pretty much where I was going with it. If you're going to compare gun dealers to any retailers, box stores are a bad choice. They deal solely in new goods. Gun stores are much more like a car dealership. Low margin new, high margin used, medium to high margins on service, etc.

 

[Hoosierdood]

That's pretty much where I was going with it. If you're going to compare gun dealers to any retailers, box stores are a bad choice. They deal solely in new goods. Gun stores are much more like a car dealership. Low margin new, high margin used, medium to high margins on service, etc.

Keep in mind that used guns might make up 5% or less of any dealer's inventory. Used guns make more profit per sale, but don't actually make the company a ton of money since they are not sold all that often. In our shop, we may sell 1 used gun for every 100 or more new guns.

 

[target64]

Ball park figures on used firearms, will buy at 60% sell at 80%

 

[indyjs]

It may be a generational thing. One gen has been raised to think they are special. If you meet to purchase a 400 dollar glock. The buyer feel they must ask for a discount and that is haggling. If they get there and the seller says its 450 dollars, the buyer feels pissed. To level the playing field, the seller has to inflate the price to allow for the haggling. Then no one responds to the ad.
The VP9 is 549 at midwest and 599 around Indy. It would easily cost me 50 dollars to drive to South Bend. Is it fair for me to demand the Indy shops match the price ? I know they have more expenses than small town South Bend. The end cost to me is the same. I either buy it or drive to South Bend. I don't go to the Net to whine about having to make that decision. Some will. By now, I know which LGS to patronize

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.png
DONShttps://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.png

 

[indyjs]

It may be a generational thing. One gen has been raised to think they are special. If you meet to purchase a 400 dollar glock. The buyer feel they must ask for a discount and that is haggling. If they get there and the seller says its 450 dollars, the buyer feels pissed. To level the playing field, the seller has to inflate the price to allow for the haggling. Then no one responds to the ad.
The VP9 is 549 at midwest and 599 around Indy. It would easily cost me 50 dollars to drive to South Bend. Is it fair for me to demand the Indy shops match the price ? I know they have more expenses than small town South Bend. The end cost to me is the same. I either buy it or drive to South Bend. I don't go to the Net to whine about having to make that decision. Some will. By now, I know which LGS to patronize


DONS

 

[Libertarian01]

I'm not arguing the buying power or business models, just that WalMart doesn't always sell they volumes they say say they will and when they cut/push out their PO's the mfg doesn't usually get to renegotiate the price. The mfg also gets to take back product into inventory, which REALLY screws up manufacturing and cash flow and all that nice predictability and consistency, which has put a lot of American companies out of business. It may even be what has been wrong with Remlin for the past several years.

Like the AR lowers for $49 at Brownells from DPMS that have been "on sale" in every email and banner ad on every gun site for a few months now. An item that you couldn't touch any where at 5 times the price just a couple years ago. Somewhere there is probably a DPMS exec who made the decision to make too many. We sit here and complain that after 6 years of Obama no one has built a new .22LR ammo factory. Maybe they are the smart ones?

(ETA: sorry, I mean Bushmaster.)

The orders from thousands of local gun shops and a few big distributors will average out to something predictable, but when Walmart cuts their forecast by 5,000 units a month and makes you take back 10,000 units into your inventory, you end up having to shut down production and lay people off. Cuz you have all your money tied up in inventory and overhead that you had to make/take on when you signed the WalMart contract.

To Kludge,

I agree with all of your points here! The book "The Walmart Effect" goes into some detail about what it is like to be a supplier/vendor for Walmart. Too many producers only see the huge numbers from Walmart and fail to realize too late that they have grabbed the tiger by the tail! Only when they become hooked on the Walmart cash flow do they begin to understand that the strings Walmart attaches to them may well put them out of business. I don't remember the names but Walmart did this to a major pickle company and a clothing company.

In the interest of full disclosure I despise Walmart at the corporate level. I wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire. I believe they operate immorally, unethically, and in some cases illegally. All that said I must admit my last professor was correct when he explained, "Think what you want about Walmart, if you want to study business and do not study Walmart then you are an idiot. They went from a very small operation to the largest single employer on planet earth in about 40 years!" Understanding all of the tools and power that went into that great achievement is critical no matter what business you are in.

On the LGS topic I believe Drillsgt's story was much better than mine! He explained very well how a big store could remain price competitive and stay on top for years. The reality is though that as a company grows and begins to beat everyone else on price it is very hard to have the best service or quality. I am not saying it cannot be done, but to focus on one (1) area of satisfying the customer eventually puts a severe strain on other.

This is the problem that the OP encountered with the LGS. The LGS should know it cannot compete on price with larger competitors, so he needs to do something to differentiate himself from them! That was the OPs observation and legitimate complaint. As I posted earlier, when asked the question - "Why should I do business with you?" this LGS didn't have an answer. The reason the OP should give him $200 was...? Nothing! Now what if that LGS said something like, "we give a free cleaning and inspection every year for three (3) years after the purchase", or "We will ship it for free back to the manufacturer for you if you have any problems with it." Something to promote quality or service, something to differentiate himself.

I think we all know that people have different priorities in shopping. Churchmouse needs to hold it in his hand. He is not alone! A LOT of people are like this. So the LGS can answer that question by saying, "I am here at an easy location for you to check out whatever you want. You can hold it, check out different grips and sizes, and compare it side by side with other similar models." For people that prioritize holding something, feeling it, experiencing it this IS a service. But that isn't enough. The LGS needs to be able to articulate that and other services he may have to offer in order to actually SELL his store. Maybe his ego got in the way and he is so full of himself that he believes he doesn't need to sell his service? I do not know.

For most things I do NOT need to hold it in my hand. Some people would freak out when I told them I bought my last car without having sat in it beforehand! When my 2002 Ford Focus was totaled in a car accident I did massive research online! I asked a good friend who was part of the design team for International Harvester trucks for advice. She was great! Then I did a lot of research online at JD Powers, looking for quality and dependability. Once I settled on a car model I used Cars.Com to shop in my region. I spoke with the previous owners son as to the quality of the vehicle. Then I drove almost 100 miles one (1) way to pick up my car, check in hand from my credit union. To this day the only nonwear Volvo part I have had to replace was the turn signal switch. I tend to prioritize quality on new things THEN look for the lowest price.

I will say again that some folks need to watch some episodes "Restaurant Impossible." It is sad how some really good, decent folks are so damn naive about running a business. They struggle for years in some cases and cannot look in the mirror and see that they are the ones dragging their business down. Robert doesn't come in and wave a magick wand. He starts by rubbing their noses in what they are doing wrong then helps give them the tools to turn their business around. He is hard on them because he only has two (2) days to shake the hell out of them, wake them up and make them realize that things are bad because of them, not their employees. Caveat: this is in most cases. There are some where the cooks needed to be removed or someone else was causing a problem. But in the end it was the owner who was failing to lead the restaurant.

I am so glad we can all agree...

Or agree to disagree...

Or not agree at all and still be friends...

Happy New Year,

Doug