Gunsite 3 Day Carbine Class in Boone County, Indiana March 28-30, 2008 and October 17

[Barry in IN]

It's alright.

 

[abnk]

Barry,


I knew someone from here was going to taking the class, but I did not remember your name. I even asked a couple of people.

I was shooter 4 on the first relay. Were you using both the ACOG and Docter? How did that setup work?

 

[Barry in IN]

It wasn't me. I didn't take this last one, but I have in the past.
I'm taking the 150 class in May.

 

[rhino]

abnk ... you'd know if you met Barry. He looks like a younger Michael Medved (the movie reviewer, columnist, and one of the few true conservatives in Hollywood).

How did the class go? You had some good weather temperature-wise!

 

[abnk]

I was wondering why the user name is Barry in IN when Barry who attended the class was from TX. Makes sense now.

rhino, the class went very well. Ken was great as always. Jay Tuttle and Dave Harris were the AIs and were both excellent. Jay is a freakin' encyclopedia. I wish he did more classes. Dave was also very good at detecting the small mistakes.

You made the comment in arfcom that this class, taught by Ken, is actually better than another by a much higher profile instructor. I should have probably addressed this in that thread, but I'll put it here as well in an attempt to share with both sites' users.

Having taken both classes in question, I don't think that it is fair to compare the two. The Gunsite Indiana 123 is more for the beginner, while the other is for the intermediate and advanced fighter. My main complaint for this class was that it was a bit too slow paced, while my complaint for the other class was that it did not concentrate enough in the fundamentals. The former is crawl, walk, but no running, while the latter is walking and running immediately without really crawling first. So, again, I think that rating these two classes by the same standards is not fair.

I hope my disagreement with you does not make me an non-perceptive and uneducated individual.

 

[abnk]

You had some good weather temperature-wise!

I missed this. Yes, temperature wise, but the high winds drained every last bit of heat from your body. I'm sure it wasn't as miserable as the December class, but it was not pleasant either.

 

[rhino]

I hope my disagreement with you does not make me an non-perceptive and uneducated individual.

I see your point, and I can partially agree with it. However, regardless of the level of the class, some instructors (like Ken) are far better at exacting the best performance from individuals (which is good for people like us). Some are less so, even if they are entirely adequate for getting a large group doing exactly the same things exactly the same way. The latter is desirable for military and perhaps some police situations, but far less for the non-LEO civilian who will be be using these skills on their own in almost all bad situations. Regardless of the curriculum, some instructors are just better at their jobs than others. I have my opinions and when someone solicits them, I will share. I'd rather learn how to tie my shoes from a good teacher who treats students with respect than learn rocket science from an adequate instructor who is a jacka**.

The other class to which we refer is (in my opinion) less of an educational opportunity and more of an organized, supervised practice session over three days. It's also (as evidenced by the students) a chance to play dress-up and pretend to be an uber warrior. There is nothing wrong with the latter, but it's not something high on my list of priorities.

As far as the pace of the Gunsite 123 class goes, I think part of that is because it is a Gunsite class and must follow their doctrine, methods, procedures, and curriculum. Another factor is always going to be the mix of the students. If you get one or two who are less skilled than the rest, it often brings the pace of the class to a slower level than it might be otherwise.

For instance, I've been in a Level II handgun class with Louis Awerbuck that moved painfully slowly because a significant number of students had not mastered the basics. Other classes have gone more smoothly because the students involved were better prepared. So part of that is a roll of the dice, and part is how an instructor chooses to handle it.

In any case, when you're actually doing the drills, you can partially tailor the level of difficulty yourself by pushing your own limits in terns of speed and accuracy.

Another thing is, most people who are in search of a carbine/rifle class really do need work on fundamentals (I know I do). I will almost always steer them toward a source that will help them develop a primary skills set effectively over a "high speed" class that is popular primarily because 1) it's perceived as more "prestigious;" 2) you shoot a lot of rounds (some gratuitously in my opinion); and 3) it's what the k00l kIDz are doing.

Finally, in a market with multiple competent vendors, some of whom are truly gifted, I will always consider personal and personality factors when selecting or recommending an instructor. Other may not care about such things, but I do. If something were "sole source," it might be a different story, but that is far from the case in 2008.

 

[rhino]

I missed this. Yes, temperature wise, but the high winds drained every last bit of heat from your body. I'm sure it wasn't as miserable as the December class, but it was not pleasant either.

Hah! You're not having fun unless it's cold enough for everything in your nose to freeze when you inhale!

 

[Fenway]

Any pictures taken at the class that you can share. Thanks for the review and there is some interesting discussion here!

 

[abnk]

rhino, I partially agree. For the individual who is new to shooting or to a certain weapon platform, Ken's teaching style is bar none. He has a way of making everyone relax and bring out the best in them.

However, for one who is a solid shooter (which I am not), the stress that is introduced in the other course we are referring to will greatly improve their skills. I guess anyone can challenge themselves with a timer and different drills, but foreign stress brought by a hard instructor and peer pressure will definitely put someone out of their comfort zone. My understanding is that this latter course does not go over the basics because it is an advanced course seeking to improve skills through stress and I think it does a great job at that. This is not for everyone. I shot next to a gentleman who shot faster and tighter groups from standing at 50yds than I did from prone. I agree with you that we need more solid fundamentals and that's why my next carbine course will probably be from YFA next year before I take another stress course.

I for one am glad that you advised me to take the Gunsite courses. I would definitely take the 123 for a second time with Ken and Jay. Budget permitting, I will also be taking the pistol one in the fall. The slow pace that I mentioned above was not as big an issue as it may have sounded.

ETA: Another great thing about the Gunsite Indiana 123 is the instructor to student ratio. Due to the small number, there was always an instructor behind my back catching my goof-ups.

 

[abnk]

Any pictures taken at the class that you can share. Thanks for the review and there is some interesting discussion here!

I'll try to post some during the next couple of days.

 

[Prometheus]

This is something I'd love to do in October.

.223 is still somewhat expensive right now, I don't think they'd have a problem with me shooting an AR chambered in 5.45x39... do you?

 

[abnk]

I don't see why they would. It's an carbine class not an AR class. A gentlemen ran the whole course with an M1 Carbine and did a great job with it.

 

[rhino]

This is something I'd love to do in October.

.223 is still somewhat expensive right now, I don't think they'd have a problem with me shooting an AR chambered in 5.45x39... do you?

First, where did you get a 5.45x39mm upper?!!

Second, it would depend on which class you take, your specific ammo, and whether or not any steel targets are used. I think Gunsite 123 only uses paper (but I can't remember). If you do the YFA carbine or some others at Boone Co., you will do some shooting at steel, and most of the instructors won't allow you to shoot anything with a steel core or jacket at their steel. So if you have 5.45x39 with a lead core and copper/brass jacket, you're fine. Otherwise, only on paper targets.

 

[abnk]

A total of five rounds per person were fired on steel.

 

[Prometheus]

First, where did you get a 5.45x39mm upper?!!

Not in hand yet Preordered from aimsurplus $569 S&W distributing made by Talos. Not on their page, have to call in for it. It IS on military gun supply.com but they want $599 for the exact same thing. MGS is shipping 1st week in May, AIM should be shipping about a week earlier.

Second, it would depend on which class you take, your specific ammo,

I've got plenty of both. Lots of wolf FMJ and JHP plus the milsurp stuff No worries there!

 

[jmb79]

A total of five rounds per person were fired on steel.

Five rounds per person? You must have lost your pairing on every shoot off! Actually, I only shot 9 rounds on steel myself.

My wife took some picture on TD2. I'll try to get some posted.

Re the difference between the Gunsite 123 and the "other instructor's" class. I agree they are differenent. I have learned from both classes. Frankly, any training that forces me to drill on fundementals and adds a little pressure/stress is good. This was my second time taking the 123 and I'll be taking the other class again in June. While I know there is no such thing as an "advanced gun fight", I would like to see some more advanced carbine training come to town (BCSO).

 

[Barry in IN]

Interesting. I took the 123 two years ago and we shot no steel. None.
We must have been the remedial 123 class (023?).

 

[abnk]

Five rounds per person? You must have lost your pairing on every shoot off! Actually, I only shot 9 rounds on steel myself.

No, I didn't lose everytime. I should have been more specific, a minimum of five rounds per shooter were shot--I shot eight.

It's good to see you here.