HEADS UP...HEADS UP...HEADS UP

[LEaSH]

If the law abiding gun community would stress self-policing and the 4 safety rules, We'd never have anti's (well, very few).

But it's not a perfect world. That's why a responsible person CYoA's so much. Not just with firearms, but with their home, auto, any other property, etc.

There are financial protections that we take and not avoiding criminal hassles could translate into a financial disaster for me and others.

 

[Clay]

It's the dollar amount that I've arbitrarily chosen as the bottom limit, under which I can't be bothered with if I get screwed. In other words, if I sell something "as is" and the buyer comes back later to complain that it's not pristine, I can show him the BoS where it states "as is" and tell him to get bent*. If it's under $100, I'm just as likely to refund the money and take the item back.


*I don't hide the condition of things I sell. If he had a legitimate complaint, I'd work with him.

Ok, now I understand! That makes good sense! Thanks!

 

[KG1]

Somewhere, I have a printed copy of a PM to Titanium Frost where I bought one of his CC/OC shirts.

I keep everything

When I do a deal with a member here I usually like to work out the details via PM's or email.

Mostly because there is a record of what was discussed incase there are any misunderstandings during or after the sale is completed.

 

[SmileDocHill]

The statute regarding out-of-state face-to-face sales is Federal:



(That's from the ATF's FAQ. I linked the statutes but the text is too long to quote here, so you'll have to Google it.)

WOW! They hid it in the FAQ. Now that this awesome policy hiding technique is public I have to ask, who came up with that trick first, us or them?

 

[DadOfFour]

All of you guys that have bills of sale, and check IDs, and LTCHs, copy all of the info down and file it away and have super secret handshakes etc. to sell a firearm I have to ask a question... WHY???

Because I want to cover my ass so that the overbearing gov't can't try to say that I had "reason to believe" that the person was ineligible to purchase. It's about DOCUMENTING the fact that I did my due diligence.

Do you not believe it is the inalienable right of every person to be armed? Do we not preach on here daily that restrictions to gun ownership should be abolished? I for one believe that guns should be on department store shelves right next to cordless drills and bbq grills. Why put our own restrictions on selling of guns??? We are not regulated by the state or federal government so why put them on there???

We ARE regulated, we have to do our due diligence and I'm going to cover my butt, so that I can prove I've done it.

We are required to:

1. Sell FTF only to an Indiana resident otherwise go through an FFL.

- The OP did good here, if the guy fully admits he is out of state its a no-go. If he lies- its on him and him alone.

2. Do not KNOWINGLY sell to a restricted person.

- Sir, are you a felon or otherwise restricted from owning or possessing a firearm in Indiana? If he lies- its on him.

Yes, it's on him, however not only do I want to cover my ass legally, I'd like to do my best to make sure I'm not selling to some gang-banger thug, wife beater who's going to use what used to be my gun to murder somebody. Don't you think that giving the antis an "example" of a law abiding gun owner unwittingly providing a gun to a "bad guy" that they can spray all across the evening news hurts our cause? It's also about personal responsibility. I would feel HORRIBLE if I half assed checking somebody out and then they used the gun I sold them to say shoot up a school.

LOL does anyone actually submit to this?

I sign a bill of sale with my name on it, and firearm info, but you (or anyone else) aren't getting my thumbprint.

Actually yes, I've never had a problem, in fact nobody has ever even raised an eyebrow when I ask for their thumbprint on the bill of sale. Heck mine's on it too (their copy) Like others have said, I can't detect a fake ID (not a good one anyway) or a fake LTCH, the thumbprint however can't be faked....unless you're Mission Impossible guy with the cool stuff lol.

 

[1 old 0311]

LOL does anyone actually submit to this?

I sign a bill of sale with my name on it, and firearm info, but you (or anyone else) aren't getting my thumbprint.

I agree but t isn't because I WON'T comply it's because I really don't have fingerprints.
Both Military, and LTC permit, were labeled "UNABLE TO VERIFY."

 

[navarre1095]

Hmm, I had a guy respond to an Armslist ad two weeks ago. He claimed to be in Atlanta, GA but had a guy in Mt. Vernon that was going to come by and check the gun out for him. He was insistent on getting my home address. I told him that we couldn't do business.

 

[boozoo]

If it sounds too good to be true....


I bet these people offering to buy from out of state don't much like the idea of having to ship it to their local FFL for a transfer, do they.

 

[DRob]

Thanks

Thanks, OP. Filing away info!

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Because I want to cover my ass so that the overbearing gov't can't try to say that I had "reason to believe" that the person was ineligible to purchase. It's about DOCUMENTING the fact that I did my due diligence.
We ARE regulated, we have to do our due diligence and I'm going to cover my butt, so that I can prove I've done it.

Yes, it's on him, however not only do I want to cover my ass legally, I'd like to do my best to make sure I'm not selling to some gang-banger thug, wife beater who's going to use what used to be my gun to murder somebody. Don't you think that giving the antis an "example" of a law abiding gun owner unwittingly providing a gun to a "bad guy" that they can spray all across the evening news hurts our cause? It's also about personal responsibility. I would feel HORRIBLE if I half assed checking somebody out and then they used the gun I sold them to say shoot up a school.

Now that sounds like liberal zombie talk there. Guns don't commit crimes, PEOPLE do! A gun is an inanimate tool that does the bidding of the one holding it, not the other way around. Would you feel the same way about someone buying your hammer? They might hurt someone with it...

Don't get too wrapped up in blaming the tools one uses to hurt others when in the end it is a man's ACTIONS that speak for him, nothing else.

Keep in mind I am not trying to say to not use your sense or logic when selling a weapon, quite the opposite! NEVER sell to someone you think will use it improperly, just like I wouldn't let someone I didn't trust borrow a hammer.

 

[SSGSAD]

Because I want to cover my ass so that the overbearing gov't can't try to say that I had "reason to believe" that the person was ineligible to purchase. It's about DOCUMENTING the fact that I did my due diligence.
We ARE regulated, we have to do our due diligence and I'm going to cover my butt, so that I can prove I've done it.

Yes, it's on him, however not only do I want to cover my ass legally, I'd like to do my best to make sure I'm not selling to some gang-banger thug, wife beater who's going to use what used to be my gun to murder somebody. Don't you think that giving the antis an "example" of a law abiding gun owner unwittingly providing a gun to a "bad guy" that they can spray all across the evening news hurts our cause? It's also about personal responsibility. I would feel HORRIBLE if I half assed checking somebody out and then they used the gun I sold them to say shoot up a school.




Actually yes, I've never had a problem, in fact nobody has ever even raised an eyebrow when I ask for their thumbprint on the bill of sale. Heck mine's on it too (their copy) Like others have said, I can't detect a fake ID (not a good one anyway) or a fake LTCH, the thumbprint however can't be faked....unless you're Mission Impossible guy with the cool stuff lol.

I agree with THIS 100%... I STILL have a reciept, from Ca. when I was in the MARINES, 1980, or 81 ... signed by ME, the Buyer, and 1 witness.... JUST in CASE, this handgun is EVER used in a FELONY .....

 

[Bunnykid68]

I would have offered to make the deal and set up a place to meet for later in the day. After I got that set up I would go the police because because some ass bag is trying to get me in trouble.

T_Frost---can I borrow a hammer?

 

[DadOfFour]

Now that sounds like liberal zombie talk there. Guns don't commit crimes, PEOPLE do! A gun is an inanimate tool that does the bidding of the one holding it, not the other way around. Would you feel the same way about someone buying your hammer? They might hurt someone with it...

Interesting the way you highlighted the phrase, "the gun" but ignored the preceding part which said, "they used" and also in the earlier part you highlighted, "my gun" but ignored, "gang-banger thug, wife beater who's going to use" In no way shape or form did I try to blame the inanimate object, and reading the entirety of my sentence would tell you that.

Don't get too wrapped up in blaming the tools one uses to hurt others when in the end it is a man's ACTIONS that speak for him, nothing else.

Again, nowhere did I blame the object.

Keep in mind I am not trying to say to not use your sense or logic when selling a weapon, quite the opposite! NEVER sell to someone you think will use it improperly, just like I wouldn't let someone I didn't trust borrow a hammer.

Did you completely ignore where I said it was to cover my ass? Seriously, you do realize that if a weapon you have sold is found at the scene of a crime (or connected to a crime) and you can't prove that you sold it/or it was stolen, then that's going to put a pretty serious focus of investigation on you. I'd rather be able to quickly and easily prove that I no longer owned the weapon, and point the police in the direction of the person I last knew to be in possession of the weapon rather than having to risk ending up in court trying to convince a jury that, no really, I sold that gun, you should take my word for it cause I'm such an upstanding person. I document EVERYTHING that could come back to bite me in the ass. I do it in my professional life, and I do it in my personal life. Heck I made my ex wife sign a bill of sale when we were dividing property during the divorce since the gun wasn't specifically mentioned in our divorce decree.

Again, I never blamed the gun, and I'm really not sure where you got that from, unless you just didn't read my post?

 

[Indy317]

You can sell without any sort of ID.

What about this law? I see nothing that says the entire statue applies to just "dealers." Nor do I see any words that connect (a), (b), (c), and (d), which means they each apply individually.

IC 35-47-2-16 Retail handgun dealer's license; restrictions; display; prohibited sales; gun show
Sec. 16. (a) A retail dealer's business shall be carried on only in the site designated in the license. A separate license shall be required for each separate retail outlet. Whenever a licensed dealer moves his place of business, he shall promptly notify the superintendent, who shall at once issue an amended license certificate valid for the balance of the license period. This subsection does not apply to sales at wholesale.
(b) The license, certified by the issuing authority, shall be displayed on the business premises in a prominent place where it can be seen easily by prospective customers.
(c) No handgun shall be sold:
(1) in violation of any provision of this chapter; or
(2) under any circumstances unless the purchaser is personally known to the seller or presents clear evidence of his identity.
(d) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a retail dealer may display, sell, or transfer handguns at a gun show in accordance with this chapter and federal law.

IC 35-47-2-23 Violations; classes of misdemeanors and felonies
Sec. 23. (a) A person who violates section 3, 4, 5, 14, 15, or 16 of this chapter commits a Class B misdemeanor.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Interesting the way you highlighted the phrase, "the gun" but ignored the preceding part which said, "they used" and also in the earlier part you highlighted, "my gun" but ignored, "gang-banger thug, wife beater who's going to use" In no way shape or form did I try to blame the inanimate object, and reading the entirety of my sentence would tell you that.
Again, nowhere did I blame the object.
Did you completely ignore where I said it was to cover my ass? Seriously, you do realize that if a weapon you have sold is found at the scene of a crime (or connected to a crime) and you can't prove that you sold it/or it was stolen, then that's going to put a pretty serious focus of investigation on you. I'd rather be able to quickly and easily prove that I no longer owned the weapon, and point the police in the direction of the person I last knew to be in possession of the weapon rather than having to risk ending up in court trying to convince a jury that, no really, I sold that gun, you should take my word for it cause I'm such an upstanding person. I document EVERYTHING that could come back to bite me in the ass. I do it in my professional life, and I do it in my personal life. Heck I made my ex wife sign a bill of sale when we were dividing property during the divorce since the gun wasn't specifically mentioned in our divorce decree.

Again, I never blamed the gun, and I'm really not sure where you got that from, unless you just didn't read my post?

The way it sounded when I read it was you were afraid to provide someone with the means to hurt someone else and my point is that you cannot control people and can't tell what people's true actions are.

In fact I DO have a friend who sold a gun that WAS used in a crime. He pointed them in the general direction and that was it. I don't believe there was a paper trail but I'm not 100% sure.

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack you just hoping that some others see the other side of the coin. The side that turns normal habits into laws and controls. See once upon a time guns were carried anywhere and everywhere and no one batted an eye. Then laws became passed that prevented normal citizens from carrying those weapons and we have been fighting to restore our rights ever since. I don't want to wake up some day and have to keep meticulous records of every item I've ever sold to stay "legal." I like it just fine the way it is.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

What about this law? I see nothing that says the entire statue applies to just "dealers." Nor do I see any words that connect (a), (b), (c), and (d), which means they each apply individually.

IC 35-47-2-16 Retail handgun dealer's license; restrictions; display; prohibited sales; gun show
Sec. 16. (a) A retail dealer's business shall be carried on only in the site designated in the license. A separate license shall be required for each separate retail outlet. Whenever a licensed dealer moves his place of business, he shall promptly notify the superintendent, who shall at once issue an amended license certificate valid for the balance of the license period. This subsection does not apply to sales at wholesale.
(b) The license, certified by the issuing authority, shall be displayed on the business premises in a prominent place where it can be seen easily by prospective customers.
(c) No handgun shall be sold:
(1) in violation of any provision of this chapter; or
(2) under any circumstances unless the purchaser is personally known to the seller or presents clear evidence of his identity.
(d) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a retail dealer may display, sell, or transfer handguns at a gun show in accordance with this chapter and federal law.

IC 35-47-2-23 Violations; classes of misdemeanors and felonies
Sec. 23. (a) A person who violates section 3, 4, 5, 14, 15, or 16 of this chapter commits a Class B misdemeanor.

It says right in the title "Retail Handgun Dealer" which does not apply to private party sales as they are not "Retail Handgun Dealers."

 

[Mad Anthony Wayne]

I did a deal with a guy from Laporte (I won't disclose his member name without checking first) and he informed me one of his friends on this site drove all the way from Ft Wayne to Indy to do a deal, asked the guy for his IN DL, then the guy started making excuses why he didn't have it. It was ATF people. Stay alert, stay legal, ASK FOR THAT IN ID!!!!

 

[weaverml34]

Bear in mind everyone, that this could be a group like The Brady Bunch trying to "prove" how easy it is for a criminal/terrorist/mental case to get a gun simply by making a phone call.
Their tactics have traditionally been to make the ownership of legitimate firearms look like the means for "low lifes" getting their hands on weapons.


Or it could be Holder and his Brown Shirts.......

Ding, ding, ding. My first thought was Bloomberg's anti gun goons.

 

[Indy317]

It says right in the title "Retail Handgun Dealer" which does not apply to private party sales as they are not "Retail Handgun Dealers."

In other parts of the Indiana Code, the semicolon is used to separate distinct laws, the language of which is printed below the heading. Here are some examples:

IC 35-42-4-5
Vicarious sexual gratification; sexual conduct in presence of a minor

IC 35-42-3.5-1
Promotion of human trafficking; sexual trafficking of a minor; human trafficking

IC 35-43-1-5
Tampering with a water supply; poisoning
Sec. 5. (a) A person who, with the intent to cause serious bodily injury, tampers with a:
(1) water supply;
(2) water treatment plant (as defined in IC 13-11-2-264); or
(3) water distribution system (as defined in IC 13-11-2-259);
commits tampering with a water supply, a Class B felony. However, the offense is a Class A felony if it results in the death of any person.
(b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally poisons a public water supply with the intent to cause serious bodily injury commits poisoning, a Class B felony.

Given these examples, I don't see how automatically subsection (c) has to be tied in with "Retail handgun dealer's license." Why can't it just apply to "prohibited sales."

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Indy317 you are correct, I missed the semicolon the first time...

Ok, so now the question is "Does the IC define 'knowing personally or clear evidence of identity'?"