Help me with determining reasonable accuracy expectations.

[BehindBlueI's]

You'll find lots of side by side "accuracy" comparisons around the web. Take them for what you paid for them...

Between the FBI and the Army's recent adoptions of new pistols, there is good test data on service pistols who applied. Both had accuracy standards. The Army called for a 90% hit rate of a 4" target at 50m for the life of the pistol. The Glock 17M, P320, and M9A3 have all tested to that standard, maybe others.

 

[VERT]

I have owned guns that would not hold a 4" group at 25 yards off a rest. 1) 2 different S&W M&P Pros (one of which got rebarreled) and 2) an SW1911 Pro in 9mm (which ended up getting rebuilt). I am sure my Glock would shoot this well if I was capable of making them do it.

I own a Walther P99, a Walter PPS and 2 Walther PPQs. They all shoot fantastic. I have hit 10" steel plates consistently with the 4" PPQ out to 80 yards. The 5" PPQ is easy 25 yard offhand head shoots on an FBI Q target at 25 yard indoor range. In fact the 5" PPQ shoots alongside or possibly better then my 9mm Nighthawk. For a new OEM plastic gun the PPQ is going to be hard to beat, at least in the "accuracy" department.

8" groups at 50 yards = 4" groups at 25 yards = 2.4" at 15 = 1.6" at 10 = 0.8" at 5. 5 yard 1" groups or the ability to hit an 8" plate out to 50 yards are fine by me.

 

[natdscott]

If you want to chase accuracy; you are going to spend money

There. I fixed that post right up for you!

-Nate

 

[mcapo]

There. I fixed that post right up for you!

-Nate

Yep - It's just like drag racing. How fast can your car go? As fast as your wallet is big.

 

[Bosshoss]

You can't buy talent. You can spend as much as you want but in drag racing you have to be skilled enough to drive the car and tune it and get it setup to launch and go straight down the track. Guns are the same way spending money might make the gun more accurate but won't help the person shooting it.
Same amount of money invested in ammo for proper practice will usually give better results than spent on accuracy enhancements.
IMO

 

[natdscott]

Bosshoss, those are not invalid points. That being said, you're introducing some ambiguity between talent and skill. Talent is great, but it won't win at a very high level. Only the execution of carefulife training and practice can yield the skills needed to excel at all levels.

The ammo thing is a wonderful point.

 

[ART338WM]

I would like to express a great deal of thanks for so many well thought out and helpful responses to my request for help. I'm not trying to be a bulls eye competitor, simply trying to buy a HG that will allow me to hit at what I'm shooting at out to reasonable distances of 25 yards or so. To answer a few questions, the reason I wish to stay with the same family of HG's is over all simplicity of equipment purchases like magazines and holsters and familiarity of my firearm to hopefully maximize my consistency with it.

I chose 25 yards as that seams to be the most commonly used accuracy standard for handguns, although that might not be an ideal application for a striker fired semi auto, that's why I'm asking. I own a first run 6" S&W 686 and a 8' Dan Wesson 357 and 44 all of three shoot sub 3" groups at 25 yards from a rest, and as I said I have shot other semi-custom 1911's and Glocks, and M&P's that also produced quite good accuracy at 25 yards for me so I know I have some ability and with LOTS of practice I can improve.

My intended use of all my HG's is fun range time, casual IDPA competing as I simply don't have the time available for serious competing for the for seeable future, and personal defense.


I also don't have the money to spend on a high end HGs as I wish to buy a Compact, sub/c and full size preferably all of the same manufacturer and are leaning towards H&Ks VP line, Walther's PPQ line, even FN, and if they FINALLY have the bugs worked out of the trigger and accuracy issues, possibly the M&P 2.0

I'm just trying to get a realistic real world expectation of a 100% factory striker fired polymer HG's will be and what I should accept it to be without having to invest large amounts of additional $$$ in after market trigger upgrades and barrels like were done to the Glock and M&P I spoke of shooting.

Again thanks for the replies so far.

 

[Leadeye]

For me, the ammo is an important consideration. I've shot revolvers that had poor accuracy until the bullet diameter was increased.

 

[WebSnyper]

I think you could control for a lot of the factors: same caliber, so same ammunition. Side by side, to ensure the same environmental conditions. Some sort of bench mounting (vise grip, or something?) to eliminate placement drift from recoil.

But, yes: I think you do largely have to eliminate all of the human influences.

And I ask again, as I did in my previous post, have you seen a Ransom rest? It should eliminate about as much a you can from a human factor, do that and put it in a controlled environment, and you have eliminated about as much as you reasonably can.

Chip, this is pretty academic for a discussion centered around Blocks, but look up the Ransom Rest. They are the de facto standard, and can very easily resolve differences in pistol/pistolsmith and ammo down to the 1 MOA range...maybe less, but you really don't hear of that many 1/2" guns at 50 yards, even in Bullseye. Not that I'm an expert there.

Exactly.

 

[Lanternman]

Personally, if I can shoot a 6" group at 25 yards with a polymer handgun, I am happy and confident with it as self defense hg.

Even my S&W Body Guard will do that.

 

[Hohn]

Between the FBI and the Army's recent adoptions of new pistols, there is good test data on service pistols who applied. Both had accuracy standards. The Army called for a 90% hit rate of a 4" target at 50m for the life of the pistol. The Glock 17M, P320, and M9A3 have all tested to that standard, maybe others.

If that's with standard USGI ammo, it's impressive performance from those guns.

 

[Hohn]

Personally, if I can shoot a 6" group at 25 yards with a polymer handgun, I am happy and confident with it as self defense hg.

Even my S&W Body Guard will do that.

I'd be happy with that, too.

Alas, I'm more like a 6" groups-at-10y kind guy. I've had a couple outings that were much better, but they proved to be flukes.

 

[Hohn]

I think people spend too much time on handgun accuracy. Almost all reputable-branded handguns from major mfgs are sufficiently accurate for the purposes of personal defense.

If you are a competitor, then that's different.

And if you need better than 6 MOA or so at 50y, then you need to choose a shoulder weapon more appropriate to that task.


Reliability, not accuracy, is what matters most in a SD gun.

 

[natdscott]

That's a very good set of points, Hohn.

-Nate

 

[JAL]

Between the FBI and the Army's recent adoptions of new pistols, there is good test data on service pistols who applied. Both had accuracy standards. The Army called for a 90% hit rate of a 4" target at 50m for the life of the pistol. The Glock 17M, P320, and M9A3 have all tested to that standard, maybe others.

One must keep in mind the tests for these are set up to isolate inherent pistol precision (i.e. shot placement variation) from quality of ammunition and end user aiming variation, which is what we're really talking about, versus accuracy, which is different. Precision of the pistol is inherent MOA of shot groups locked into a bench and using the best possible match grade ammunition. If you don't have precision, you cannot have much accuracy as even if it's centered, it will still be a large group. If you achieve precision, then you can shift where the group lands, which achieves accuracy. You've undoubtedly seen this on a range. Someone with large shot groups will be all over the target. It's useless to do much in fine tuning sight adjustment until you've got smaller shot groups, which is an improvement in precision. Then you can adjust sights or aim point and adjust for greater accuracy.

For a handgun in practical self defense, if one can hold a six to eight inch shot group at about 12-15 yards, and an eight to twelve inch shot group at 25 yards, in fairly rapid fire, it's going to be rather deadly, unless you're expecting kill shots to the head. For that, one should use a long gun if at all possible.

John

 

[BehindBlueI's]

One must keep in mind the tests for these are set up to isolate inherent pistol precision (i.e. shot placement variation) from quality of ammunition and end user aiming variation, which is what we're really talking about, versus accuracy, which is different. Precision of the pistol is inherent MOA of shot groups locked into a bench and using the best possible match grade ammunition.

What "best possible match grade ammunition" did the FBI and the Army use?

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Solicitation.Pistols%20(1).pdf

Unless otherwise noted, all ammunition used for accuracy and endurance testing shall be FBIservice and training ammunition as follows:
Service: Speer Cartridge #54227 147 gr. Gold Dot G2 (Vista Outdoors isoffering this ammunition commercially as product code 954227).
16Training: Speer Cartridge #53685 115 gr. TMJTraining Reduced Lead:
Speer Cartridge #53690 115 gr. TMJ CleanfireFrangible:
Hornady #90229 100 gr. Frangible

So, no, not "match grade" anything, normal off-the-shelf training and duty ammo.

I've yet to have anyone wish they, or their pistol, was less accurate. Use whatever standards you like, but if the best I can do is 6-8" at 12y, I wouldn't be even remotely happy with that.

 

[Hohn]

I don't know anyone that's "happy" with 6-8" at 12y.

But it's a question of ROI for a lot of people. Each inch off your group is marginally much greater cost in terms of time and money.

So it's not about being happy, it's about what is acceptable in light of the cost of achieving more. I have a pistol with *acceptable* reliability and in my hand it is *acceptably* accurate. No more.

Someone else may have different standards of acceptability, and that's their prerogative.

 

[gglass]

I would suggest either the M&P m2.0 or the Walther PPQ for their superior accuracy at 25-yards. I own both, and can say that for polymer-framed, striker-fired handguns that each can nearly match my custom 1911 in terms of accuracy... That is saying a lot for a firearm that is only supposed to be combat accurate.

M&P40 m2.0 at 25-yards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japNDa82YnY

PPQ at 14 yards, but you get the picture:

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't know anyone that's "happy" with 6-8" at 12y.

But it's a question of ROI for a lot of people. Each inch off your group is marginally much greater cost in terms of time and money.

So it's not about being happy, it's about what is acceptable in light of the cost of achieving more. I have a pistol with *acceptable* reliability and in my hand it is *acceptably* accurate. No more.

Someone else may have different standards of acceptability, and that's their prerogative.

Probably why about 1/3 of people are missing their shots at near arms length. Low standards and a misunderstanding of the topic.

6-8" when everything is static, there is no adrenaline dump, and there's no time pressure doesn't equate to 6-8" In the real world self defense shooting.

Dry fire is basically free, quality pistols aren't expensive, etc. It's priorities.

 

[throttletony]

If you want to chase accuracy; you are going to spend money after the purchase - especially with the striker fired guns you mentioned. Factory striker fired triggers are often designed for self defense use and influenced by lawyers without the intent of being "target" grade. Barrels are often made for longevity and acceptable accuracy.

You'll find lots of side by side "accuracy" comparisons around the web. Take them for what you paid for them...

To answer OP - I think you have a reasonable standard set for yourself and your gear (3" at 25 yds off of a sandbag, maybe 2.5" if you have more precise sights). Shooting freehand, I'd expect those to open up a bit. If you can average that during a day of shooting, I think that is good (or even great) for many polymer guns out there. Bob Vogel can wring a lot of accuracy out of a Glock, for example.
... I can not shoot like Bob Vogel, Max Michel, Jerry Miculek, or KC Eusebio.

I think I have to agree with the quote above.
Is there any problem with using a steel gun or a revolver? Are you looking for a "set" of guns (interchangeability) that can perform every role?? (self-defense, CCW, target/comeptition, etc). My experience is that revolvers can bring a LOT of accuracy to the table, especially when you find a load that works well with your particular gun (bullet shape, powder used, etc)

In my meager experience, I shoot FN polymer guns, and all steel guns (CZ 75s, 1911s, 6-shot revolvers) the best.
As others have mentioned, it's a combination of the "Indian and the arrow", but a mechanical item should be held to some standard, like you propose.
Poorly made guns, especially barrels, and poor ammunition will quickly ruin your averages.

Since you seem concerned with accuracy, you could approach this like precision rifle shooters -- develop the perfect load for YOUR individual gun. Unfortunately, in a handgun, the bar can only be so high with accuracy

edit to add: I also like Walther PPQs for accuracy, long-slide glocks are ok (G34 was my first handgun, and I miss it).
Why not get a couple CZs from the CZ custom shop?