How a Bachelors degree only gets you $12.00 an hour

[wtburnette]

My parents worked at the same place their entire lives...I seem to have to find a new job every 9-10 years...

I'm closer to every 4 - 5 years looking for a new job. I look at it like this, I expect, based on hard work, that I get a promotion every 18 months to 2 years. If that can't be supported by my employer, than after no more than 3 - 4 years I look for a better position with another company. My career field, Information Security, is exploding. I started on the low end of things a few years ago and am at an intermediate level now. In the next year or so, I should be able to get a Sr. level position, if not with my company, than with another. I will work hard for a company when I'm employed by them, but with no retirement benefits to speak of, either the company does well by me, or I can do well by another company.

 

[churchmouse]

Ancient History Perspective: I graduated from High School in the mid 1970's, in Indy

Shadeland Avenue had Western Electric, Jenn Air, and Chrysler....then we also had Allison Transmission, Detroit Diesel, Bridgeport Brass, Ford Motor Company, Cummins was in Columbus, International Harvester was in Ft Wayne and Indy, Chrysler had plants in New Castle, Kokomo, Marion had Fisher Body, Anderson thrived on the General Motors and Guide Lamp jobs

So when I was in High School, my buddies had dads that worked in the plants. They had two cars, motorcycles, a boat or two, a decent home, enjoyed at least one nice vacation a year, health insurance, and looked forward to a Union retirement. Making about $32-37K a year.

By the end of the 1970's the plants were closed, thousands of long time factory workers were unemployed, the military was scaling back as the war was over, and all of a sudden a high school graduate could not count on a 30 year career on the assembly line and living happily ever after. I got married in 1979....mortgage rates were nearly 16% and more in some places, the economy was stalled, it was impossible for most folks to save a dime. Luckily for me I had been a electronics junkie and in 1980 I got my first paying job working with "computers" and doing "data processing". A self taught skill set that has served me well now for almost 40 years. My college grad kids chose technical and business fields that have paid off for them, but they have way too many friends that have undergrad degrees in unmarketable skills, so they have almost no way to ever repay the student loans they took out by the tens of thousands.

$60K - $80K for a BA in Social Work is going to be hard to pay back

Every generation of workers has to face a different environment. My parents worked at the same place their entire lives...I seem to have to find a new job every 9-10 years...

My career path was much the same. Graduated in 1968 and factory blue collar life looked to be my only path.
I had worked with a man I called my uncle (no blood relation) from about 14 until he passed my senior year. He had a refrigeration service business. It was the base that sent on a path. I worked an assembly line for a while until laid off and was desperate for work in a stalled economy. Took my skills and went into the HVAC-R trade in the construction side for minimum wage at the time. Once in the door I expanded my skill sets and found that to advance I had to constantly change jobs for pay/benefits increases up to the point I joined the local for top pay/benefits. It was an interesting path to travel. I relied on my skills to carry me through and still do.

 

[Bapak2ja]

A new hire at the mill will make twice that, with overtime once he's done with his apprenticeship.

If he can get hired. Competition is fierce. Then wait until the company folds, or gets bought out, after he hits 50. Even my pastor was told, "We don't place pastors over 50." It is not as simple as many of these comments make it seem.

The critical issue in education is mastering the ability to think, to reason; if one can do that, many job avenues open up. Along with that is the skills to network (or BS or BN the boss). I also suggest one never quit learning. It is imperative to continue to master new skills and to upgrade the skills one has.

Trade schools are great, unless you set your pants on fire when you light up the blow torch, or you have a tendency to hit the wrong nail with the hammer, or can't distinguish a left-handed monkey wrench from a right-handed one, or none of your work colleagues will tell you what is going on when your "mentor" sends you to get the sky hook. For those folks, a college degree is an essential part of survival. The ability to write cogently, to express difficult concepts in clear language, or the ability to understand and explain human behavior, or the ability to distinguish the difference between indigestion and a ruptured appendix, require a bit more training than is offered in the trade schools.

I suggest the greatest problems are the absentee father (due to workaholism, alcoholism, drugs, promiscuity, divorce, whatever) and the helicopter mom who intervenes in every crisis so that junior never learns to "root hog or die" instead of wearing his pajamas all day in mom's basement. Parents are necessary to guide their kids into wise choices that are compatible with their personality, their physical abilities, their natural affinities (don't push the kid to sing if he can't carry a tune in a bucket), and available opportunities.

It is not as simple as some folks here want to make it.

 

[thunderchicken]

I work as an automotive technician. Got to wherw I am at mostly from the good old school of hard knocks. Spent one semester in college and during that time, I realized I didn't want to be stuck inside sitting in a tiny office or a cubicle all my life. I grew up around the auto industry and racing has always been a huge passion for me. I was basically told at the end of the semester not to return. I missed too many classes hanging out with buddies at the race track and street racing while working for a family friend in the shop he ran. I bounced from shop to shop based on who would pay me more money for a few years. During that time I picked up some courses through a trade school. Then when I was in my early 20s I decided that I wanted to pursue a career in law enforcement. After @ 3 years of working in the courts, I had seen enough and dealt with enough to know it wasn't what I wanted to do long term. I went back to working in the auto industry older and wiser as I realized the importance of benefits and not just dollar bills. I carry several certifications and have made a good honest living. No, I am not getting rich but I have a good wage, excellent benefits that include about 10 weeks of paid time off (including holidays) per year. With the skill set I possess, IF I had to I could find work in the auto body industry, a service consultant, welder, or custom fabricating. The problem with many people with fancy degrees is, many are book smart but lack the common since and problem solving skills to know when to get in out of the rain

 

[NyleRN]

One of my closest friends is a high school drop out with a GED. Works from home in the IT field unless they need him on sute where they fly him in and put him up in nice hotels and an expense account. Makes 6 figures. Thy man has worked his ass off to get where he is and I couldn’t think of a better example of what America is and can be.

Im a college drop out. Did 3 semesters as a music ed major before ibA.) ran out of money and 2.) realized teaching was not my thing. I work he’s at every job I’ve ever had and I’d say I’m doing OK. 22+ an hour, 3 weeks I vaca and a week of pto and my employer willing to spend another 3k this coming year to advance my knowledge base with another certification which brings another raise.

So the whole “struggle your whole life and be content with hardly anything” crap is a bit insulting and completely false.

Well, I did say there were exceptions. Exceptions are not the rules. If most could do what your close friend did then what would be the incentive for a secondary education?

 

[PGRChaplain]

Railroad is looking for Help, $60,000 starting salary. No Degree required. They do expect you to Work.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Railroad is looking for Help, $60,000 starting salary. No Degree required. They do expect you to Work.

I remember from my Transition Assistance Program when I was retiring from the USAF railroads like veterans. Show up on time, don't do drugs.

 

[Alpo]

If you are satisfied with your education level and earning power, family situation and station in life....good for you.

Why is it necessary to bash those with more (or less) formal education? It always struck me as smug to do so.

In today's fastfood society, a person can get by quite well without knowing how to use a fork or knife.

Personally, I like an individual with good table manners, and I respect a person who put in the time and made the sacrifices necessary for formal education and or skills training.

But, if you've accomplished all that you want out of life without an education (or a fork), bravo!

 

[PaulF]

Education is a tool.

Perhaps it is bias, but in terms of post-secondary education I hold vocational education above all other forms. I use the term vocational broadly here. Law school is vocational education. So is medical school. Also the trades. These programs teach the students a skill, or at least enough of the foundation to land a proper apprenticeship. It seems to me that the dollars put into programs like these create exponential lifetime returns. Once a man learns a skill it cannot be taken away. A skill gives a man options, and agency in the marketplace. I see the value there.

Less so for what has become of the modern Liberal Arts education. I attended university in the 90's, and Liberal Arts had already lost its way. Gone was the focus on the classics, like literature, history, philosophy, language, and arts. The classes I was offered were packaged as "the social sciences", and were the refuge of the most ideological of faculty and student. Seventy-five years ago a Liberal Arts degree signified an intellectual maturation of sorts. The bearer had been exposed to the breadth of academia as was found to be capable in its application. In previous generations a BA was vocational, if only indirectly. It allowed a student access to the higher levels of the labor market. Now?

Well, now the BA is whatever the student wants it to be. It is a receipt for an expensive experience that ultimately signifies nothing to anyone else. It isn't vocational. As an employer, I don't care how many genders you can describe, or how many video games you've carefully analyzed for their social weight. It seems to me that a lot of young people are spending a lot of money for relatively little in return, or even potential return.

I think the practical answer speaks the loudest: Engineering, medicine, law, the trades...these paths have greater value because they teach the foundations of a skill. The BA used to do that...its "skill" was critical thinking. I don't think that's true anymore. While there are undoubtedly some "classic" liberal arts programs to be found in the modern university, I think the "brand" of the BA has been permanently watered down with modern "everybody has to go to college" consumer-grade degree tracks.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Education is a tool.

Perhaps it is bias, but in terms of post-secondary education I hold vocational education above all other forms. I use the term vocational broadly here. Law school is vocational education. So is medical school. Also the trades. These programs teach the students a skill, or at least enough of the foundation to land a proper apprenticeship. It seems to me that the dollars put into programs like these create exponential lifetime returns. Once a man learns a skill it cannot be taken away. A skill gives a man options, and agency in the marketplace. I see the value there.

Less so for what has become of the modern Liberal Arts education. I attended university in the 90's, and Liberal Arts had already lost its way. Gone were the focus on the classics, like literature, history, philosophy, language, and arts. The classes I were offered were packaged as "the social sciences", and were the refuge of the most ideological of faculty and student. Seventy-five years ago a Liberal Arts degree signified an intellectual maturation of sorts. The bearer had been exposed to the breadth of academia as was found to be capable in its application. In previous generations a BA was vocational, if only indirectly. It allowed a student access to the higher levels of the labor market. Now?

Well, now the BA is whatever the student wants it to be. It is a receipt for an expensive experience that ultimately signifies nothing to anyone else. It isn't vocational. As an employer, I don't care how many genders you can describe, or how many video games you've carefully analyzed for their social weight. It seems to me that a lot of young people are spending a lot of money for relatively little in return, or even potential return.

I think the practical answer speaks the loudest: Engineering, medicine, law, the trades...these paths have greater value because they teach the foundations of a skill. The BA used to do that...its "skill" was critical thinking. I don't think that's true anymore. While there are undoubtedly some "classic" liberal arts programs to be found in the modern university, I think the "brand" of the BA has been permanently watered down with modern "everybody has to go to college" consumer-grade degree tracks.

I was fascinated by the idea of the "Renaissance Man," and even before college worked hard to be one. I'd like to think, generally, I'm fairly well rounded.

 

[Alpo]

I think the film was "The History Boys". Yeah...it had a "gay" problem that may be something some of you wouldn't put up with (not my cup of tea either, but I was willing to overlook it based upon the other aspects of the film).

Anyway, the film focused on an English seventh-term students in a General Studies course. Translated: kids who are possibly on their way to Cambridge or Oxford with a broad, classical education.

I think we stopped this type of education at the bachelor's level in the 1960's in most public colleges, although there were exceptions. It's a shame we don't have more of this type of education available today for those who are suited to it.

 

[actaeon277]

To clarify, I am for someone getting education. Guns, Jobs, Language, whatever.

But there is a tendency to push EVERYONE in high school to college.
Most high schools have done away with their trades.
And there is an attitude just like the cartoon I quoted, I went to college, let's look down on the tradesman.

Yet, depending on the trade, I've seen people hired in welding classes, conditional on their completion.

So, if you want to be a doctor, lawyer, whatever, go to college.
If you don't know what you want to do, then racking up expensive debt seems kinda silly.

 

[MarkC]

Education is a tool.

Perhaps it is bias, but in terms of post-secondary education I hold vocational education above all other forms. I use the term vocational broadly here. Law school is vocational education. So is medical school. Also the trades. These programs teach the students a skill, or at least enough of the foundation to land a proper apprenticeship. It seems to me that the dollars put into programs like these create exponential lifetime returns. Once a man learns a skill it cannot be taken away. A skill gives a man options, and agency in the marketplace. I see the value there.

Less so for what has become of the modern Liberal Arts education. I attended university in the 90's, and Liberal Arts had already lost its way. Gone was the focus on the classics, like literature, history, philosophy, language, and arts. The classes I was offered were packaged as "the social sciences", and were the refuge of the most ideological of faculty and student. Seventy-five years ago a Liberal Arts degree signified an intellectual maturation of sorts. The bearer had been exposed to the breadth of academia as was found to be capable in its application. In previous generations a BA was vocational, if only indirectly. It allowed a student access to the higher levels of the labor market. Now?

Well, now the BA is whatever the student wants it to be. It is a receipt for an expensive experience that ultimately signifies nothing to anyone else. It isn't vocational. As an employer, I don't care how many genders you can describe, or how many video games you've carefully analyzed for their social weight. It seems to me that a lot of young people are spending a lot of money for relatively little in return, or even potential return.

I think the practical answer speaks the loudest: Engineering, medicine, law, the trades...these paths have greater value because they teach the foundations of a skill. The BA used to do that...its "skill" was critical thinking. I don't think that's true anymore. While there are undoubtedly some "classic" liberal arts programs to be found in the modern university, I think the "brand" of the BA has been permanently watered down with modern "everybody has to go to college" consumer-grade degree tracks.

I was fascinated by the idea of the "Renaissance Man," and even before college worked hard to be one. I'd like to think, generally, I'm fairly well rounded.

Paul made so many good points; I highlighted the ones that stood out to me in his well-written short analysis of what is wrong with today's version of higher education.

It has been so commoditized; schools are worried about competition and keeping "cheeks [butt cheeks, that is] in seats," as I was told by an school admin friend. They are chasing the students who are "rich" with student loan money to spend and too many cushy school options to choose from.

A BA/BS has become the new HS diploma; you have to have one to be competitive, outside of the skilled trades, etc.

As for Kut's good point: with the availability of knowledge today, one need not attend formal higher education to be fairly well rounded, if one is inquisitive and seeks the knowledge that is out there for the taking.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I was fascinated by the idea of the "Renaissance Man," and even before college worked hard to be one. I'd like to think, generally, I'm fairly well rounded.

"worst web forum ever"

 

[Hookeye]

Have seen some HR folks hire 4 yr degree people...........the degree not even related to the job.
They refused to hire others with 2 yr degrees and 10-20 yrs experience in the field.

HR folks..............fluff degree, hiring only those that have played the same game, and gotten a fluff 4 yr degree.
Is what it is.

Love it when they add in diversity and totally make a mess of things.

 

[actaeon277]

Have seen some HR folks hire 4 yr degree people...........the degree not even related to the job.
They refused to hire others with 2 yr degrees and 10-20 yrs experience in the field.

HR folks..............fluff degree, hiring only those that have played the same game, and gotten a fluff 4 yr degree.
Is what it is.

Love it when they add in diversity and totally make a mess of things.

I've seen that.

 

[JettaKnight]

But there is a tendency to push EVERYONE in high school to college.
Most high schools have done away with their trades.

You're right. Schools are managed by people with PhD's and masters degrees; there's a bias that influences their decision making.


Want really grind your gears?

Here's a D.C. school that is, shall we say "urban", that is so very proud that 100% of its students apply for college.

Problem is that many, many of them should not have even graduated high school.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...he-school-where-every-senior-got-into-college

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...f7c19270879_story.html?utm_term=.a5ba5328c1a1

 

[Hookeye]

Don't get me wrong............liberal arts is fine.
Nothing wrong with studying what one likes.
But unless one has a killer trust fund..........being self sufficient is the main purpose of an education.

Told my kid what a 2 yr Purdue tech degree person makes.
She said it would take a masters in liberal arts to make that.............and she declared it "unfair".
Then I told her what classes that 2 yr tech degree had.

She said "those suck!".

And I told her "exactly"............and that's why the job pays better.

 

[Tactically Fat]

I may be in the minority...

We know, dude. You bring it up often.

Purple text. Purple text. Purple text.

As far as the theme of this thread: I've often thought that it'd be nice to be a wrench-turner mechanic of some kind. If I had my brain's wiring NOW back when I was a kid, I might could've been. But none of my parents were/are any kind of shade-tree mechanic/tinkerer so nothing like that was instilled in me.

But these days, I certainly can't afford to quit my current job to somehow learn how to be a mechanic - let alone the investment in physical tools that it'd take.

 

[actaeon277]

You're right. Schools are managed by people with PhD's and masters degrees; there's a bias that influences their decision making.


Want really grind your gears?

Here's a D.C. school that is, shall we say "urban", that is so very proud that 100% of its students apply for college.

Problem is that many, many of them should not have even graduated high school.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...he-school-where-every-senior-got-into-college

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...f7c19270879_story.html?utm_term=.a5ba5328c1a1

Well, so far those look like "allegations".
Let's see how those students did a college, compared to the national average.