how do navy seals feel about 9mm?

[IndyGunSafety]

a 45 is only a substitute for a man who lacks confidence in being able to put the bullet where it needs to go

Well it could be a substitute for other things, lol! <------ Carries a full sized 1911.

One may consider degredation of cover, penetration and many other things we civilians don't think about as much.

I don't want to get shot with ANY caliber, but if I was on the receiving end and got to choose.... Just sayin'.

 

[Slab]

9mm or bust!!!

 

[haldir]

Have the Seals changed their handgun then? Last I read it was this:HANDGUNS:
HK Mk 23 SOCOM .45 ACP
The HK Mk 23 was a pistol developed specifically for the U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM) and was officially adopted in 1996. The Mk 23 was chosen for supreme accuracy, reliable functioning, corrosion resistant properties and terminal ballistics behind the .45 ACP. It stood against various torture tests including a separate unlubricated 96-hour surf and saline mist tests, 30,000-round +P ammunition endurance firing, drop tests, 450 accuracy test firings, submersion in sand, sludge in temperatures ranging between 160 degrees and -60 degrees Fahrenheit. The extended barrel features threading designed to accept a KAC suppressor.SPECIFICATIONS: Heckler & Koch Mark 23
Caliber: .45 ACP
Weight (w/ suppressor): 4.22 lbs.
Length (w/ suppressor): 16.56”
Barrel length: 5.875”
Magazine capacity: 12 rds.

ASSAULT RIFLES:
Colt M4A1 5.56 NATO
The Colt M4A1 is a SEAL’s primary weapon and features the SOPMOD (Special Operations Peculiar) accessory kit including a six-position Crane collapsible stock. More compact than the U.S. Navy’s standard issue M16A2, the modular M4A1 can be reconfigured by the user for missions with a grenade launcher, shotgun, various optics, lasers and illumination tools. Capable of both semi-auto and full-auto modes, the M4 has a rate of fire between 750 and 900 rounds per minute and uses a quick-attach suppressor. Additional enhancements are currently being considered.

SPECIFICATIONS: Colt M4A1
Caliber: 5.56 NATO
Weight: 5.6 lbs.
Length: 33” (stock extended), 29.8” (stock collapsed)
Barrel length: 14.5”
Magazine capacity: 30 rds.

SNIPER RIFLES:
Knight’s Armament Mk 11 SWS 7.62 NATO
The Mk 11 SWS (Sniper Weapon System) is based on the highly accurate SR-25 also produced by KAC. The Mk 11 was developed to meet a solicitation placed by the U.S. Navy SEALs. Featuring controls like the standard issue Colt M4A1, the Mk 11 is a unique semi-auto-only sniper rifle that can be suppressed and is capable of delivering effective precision beyond 1,000 yards.

SPECIFICATIONS: KAC Mk 11 SWS 7.62
Caliber: 7.62 NATO
Weight: 15.3 lbs.
Length: 45.5”
Barrel length: 14.5”
Magazine capacity: 20, 10 or 5 rds.

Barrett M82A1 SASR .50 BMG
Procured in time for the first Gulf War, the M82 made a reputation for long range and deep penetrating effectiveness against hard targets. Adopted as the SASR (Special Application Scoped Rifle), it has expanded capabilities with EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) and as extreme range anti-personnel rifle. This short recoil, rotating bolt semi-automatic rifle delivers high energy and was famously used in Somalia by the SEALs in 1993 against many enemy vehicles.

SPECIFICATIONS: Barrett M82A1 SASR
Caliber: .50 BMG
Weight: 31.0 lbs.
Length: 48 or 57”
Barrel length: 20 or 29”
Magazine capacity: 10 rds.

SUBMACHINE GUNS:
HK MP5N 9mm NATO
The compact MP5 continues to be popular among elite counter-terror organizations. Operating from a unique roller-delayed blowback system, the MP5N was developed by Heckler and Koch specifically for the SEALs. This “Navy” model fires from both a closed and locked bolt in semi-auto, burst, or full-auto modes. The 800 round-per-minute MP5 is extremely accurate and provides a superb option for CQB operations earning praise from the SEALs for its controllability, smooth operation and accurate shot placement.

SPECIFICATIONS: HK MP5
Caliber: 9mm NATO
Weight: 6.47 lbs.
Length: 27.25” (stock extended), 21” (stock collapsed)
Barrel length: 8.85”
Magazine capacity: 30 rds.

MACHINE GUNS:
FN M240 7.62 NATO
The M240 is a widely used machine gun that has been seen service ranging from a base of fire to coaxial configurations supporting main guns on armored vehicles. It is known for its high reliability and operates from the open bolt. The M240 features an adjustable gas system that fires between 650 and 950 rounds per minute and the M240B and M240G models feature a bipod. Even though it is heavier than the M60, the M240 is expected to completely replace the M60 due to its easy maintenance and impressive reliability.

SPECIFICATIONS M240
Caliber: 7.62 NATO
Weight: 27.3 lbs.
Length: 49”
Barrel length: 24.68”
Magazine capacity: N/A

 

[sporter]

Seals use the Sig 226 last time I checked.

The MK23 is basically obsolete as it is too heavy and bulky (from what I have read) and no wants to use it. More like a toy.

 

[gglass]

Navy SEAL Teams started using the SIG P226 in the 1980s.

The SIG P226-M11 is a version of the SIG P226 that is supplied to the Navy SEALs, and includes special phosphate corrosion-resistant finish on internal parts and contrast sights.

M11 | NavySEALs.com - Experience the SEAL Edge

 

[kingnereli]

a 45 is only a substitute for a man who lacks confidence in being able to put the bullet where it needs to go

Somebody is stirring the pot.

 

[Lock n Load]

I carry either a 9mm (G19, Ber 92G or a SIG P226) or a .45acp (G21 or 1911) and can hit what Im aiming at, thats most important.

Secondly, there are 2 rules to a gun fight:

#1: never bring a knife to a gun fight

#2: never bring a handgun to a gun fight

Adhere to these 2 rules and you will have the advantage!!!

 

[IndyGunworks]

Somebody is stirring the pot.

 

[Bisley Man]

Use the caliber you're good with.

With that said. in the Chris Bird book,"Thank God I Had Gun" Bill Davison,ex Royal Marine Special Boat Service member told detracters of the 9mm.."I can honestly tell you, gentlemen, that I have never had someone not die because I shot them with a 9mil. They all died immediately, and I'm really pleased with the cartridge."

 

[sloughfoot]

"The 88 Magnum, it goes through schools" Why would anyone want anything less?

 

[Dryden]

Mafia Hit-Men have used the .22 LR for a long time. Two behind the ear.

Just remember to take the canoles.

 

[ACT II]

For what it's worth . . .

• All common defensive handgun rounds are puny. Their only genuine utility is that handguns are easily portable and concealable.
• Shot placement is very important, but it's not even close to being any kind of a guarantee.
• The only "guaranteed" stop is destroying the medulla oblongata (brain stem), which is a difficult target for a variety of reasons. Shots to other parts of the brain/spinal column are unpredictable with handgun projectiles, and that assumes that your bullet(s) manage to pentrate the skull.
• No one knows how many rounds it will take to eliminate a given threat, regardless of the caliber and the concept of a "one shot stop" with any handheld weapon is a myth. There are too many variables even if the marksmanships is excellent and the terminal ballistics of the projectiles are as advertised. That's why you have to keep servicing the threat until it's not a threat anymore.

With that in mind, here are some additional bits of information courtesy of some time I spent with John Farnam:

• 97% of the people who are shot in in America survive. That includes suicide attempts. Handguns are puny.
• The most common reaction observed when people are shot is that they run away. That's an excellent outcome for the defender, and if that happens, the rest is moot.
• Incapacitation due to blood loss isn't going to happen instantaneously, regardless of how many holes you put in the threat. I don't recall the quoted figure, but you're looking at a minimum of 20-30 seconds for someone to bleed enough to be incapacitated.

Joseph Viray (aka rhino)
Joseph@AdaptiveConsultingandTraining.com

 

[flatlander]

a 45 is only a substitute for a man who lacks confidence in being able to put the bullet where it needs to go

Actually, the man with the 45 has MORE confidence as he usually carries a weapon with lower magazine capacity versus the 9mm guy who knows it may take ALL those rounds to stop his attacker no matter WHERE he puts them

Bob

 

[Professor Thump]

What if a guy is carrying a 9 mm and thinks that it would be good to carry a .45 also? Does he really have a confidence problem, is he a bad shot or do his pants just fall down without a better belt?

Insert obvious LOL

 

[Dr Falken]

As to the animal kingdom I'm amazed as to what caliber and shoot placement can do. Like the deer I shot with a 12 guage slug that walked off 50 yards before expiring. Claiming the deer showed that it's front leg hung free, the shoulder broken and further examination showed the slug had gone thru the heart...while deer aren't humans and animals show a greater tenacity to life then we do (it seems)...caliber and shot placement seems to come down to a greater or lesser percentage of ability to stop a target. And of course no mention is made of the type of bullet being shot.

 

[kingnereli]

For what it's worth . . .

• All common defensive handgun rounds are puny. Their only genuine utility is that handguns are easily portable and concealable.
• Shot placement is very important, but it's not even close to being any kind of a guarantee.
• The only "guaranteed" stop is destroying the medulla oblongata (brain stem), which is a difficult target for a variety of reasons. Shots to other parts of the brain/spinal column are unpredictable with handgun projectiles, and that assumes that your bullet(s) manage to pentrate the skull.
• No one knows how many rounds it will take to eliminate a given threat, regardless of the caliber and the concept of a "one shot stop" with any handheld weapon is a myth. There are too many variables even if the marksmanships is excellent and the terminal ballistics of the projectiles are as advertised. That's why you have to keep servicing the threat until it's not a threat anymore.

With that in mind, here are some additional bits of information courtesy of some time I spent with John Farnam:

• 97% of the people who are shot in in America survive. That includes suicide attempts. Handguns are puny.
• The most common reaction observed when people are shot is that they run away. That's an excellent outcome for the defender, and if that happens, the rest is moot.
• Incapacitation due to blood loss isn't going to happen instantaneously, regardless of how many holes you put in the threat. I don't recall the quoted figure, but you're looking at a minimum of 20-30 seconds for someone to bleed enough to be incapacitated.

Joseph Viray (aka rhino)
Joseph@AdaptiveConsultingandTraining.com

Very true. However, it is the very fact that handgun calibers are so puny that makes the choice so important. If I'm going to carry a puny caliber all day it had better be the best puny caliber I can find. IMO, YMMV and all that, but sufficient penetration and as big a whole as possible is what I'm after.

 

[Mongoose1.1]

I can't believe you wasted a perfectly good watermelon.

 

[Grelber]

This thread should be titled "what one particular navy seal happens to think".

Chris Kyle (Navy Seal, 4 tours, 150 + officially reported kills some room to room and some long range) carried a 45 by choice.
By the way, his book "American Sniper" is a good read in my opinion.

 

[dom1104]

If I was breaking into someones house to rape their wimmins and steal their bacon....

and I somehow knew I was going to take 2 shots to the chest from their gun....

I would prefer the holes in my chest to be of the 9mm size.

 

[NIFT]

When all factors are considered, along with all the "yes, buts" "howevers," "on the other hands", there isn't any material difference among the 9, the .40, and the .45 when using ammunition that passes the FBI protocols for terminal performance.


One important factor to consider:

1. Caliber and ammunition are technical issues, while
2. Shot placement is a training issue.

Those two factors are independent--one is not controlled or impacted by the other. However, almost without fail, any discussion of caliber/ammunition introduces shot placement, but caliber/ammuniiton is not a function of training and vice versa.