how do navy seals feel about 9mm?

[mettle]

WOW,
talk about thread resurrection!?!?

2009?

wow....

I did enjoy the video again though.

 

[Hohn]

You know, IF all the things that SEAL assumed were correct (I put two of these in your heart and one in your head), then he'd be right.

But the penetration of most 9mm round doesn't always guarantee that they will actually get to your heart.


Agent Dove's 9mm shot from his S&W 459 in the 1986 Miami shootout would have incapacitated Platt had it penetrated further. (It was a side shot that entered the right side of his chest cavity).

In this case, Platt knew the difference between 9mm and perhaps some other caliber, because the 9mm let him continue fighting.

Agent Dove was killed.

THIS shot-- this specific shot is what drove the FBI to consider a different caliber. All of the rest of the FBI Miami shootout was an argument for moving to automatics instead of revolvers. But Dove's shot was the reason they considered a new caliber as well, not just moving to an existing 9mm or .45 ACP auto.

One COULD argue credibly that this shot from Agent Dove is the reason the .40 S&W exists. It was the genesis for all the events that led to the creation of the .40S&W.

I personally don't consider anything smaller than .380ACP to be worth considering for a protection role.

Yes, .25s and .32s can kill someone, just as .22LR can. But CAN kill someone and WILL are often miles apart. Usually that difference is shot placement, but caliber matters. It's not the only thing, and it's not everything, but it DOES matter.

 

[Tactical Dave]

My primary carry right now is a 147gr 9mm. I prefer a .45 honestly, a 9 will do the job but for someone who does not shoot at and get shot at by real people in high stress situations about every day I'd rather have a bit larger round so that if I am a little off I will still inflict a world of hurt.

I have had at least two EMT's tell me they have seen more people killed or seriously hurt by a .22 then any other cal.....

 

[.452browning]

WOW,
talk about thread resurrection!?!?

2009?

wow....

I did enjoy the video again though.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c[/ame]

 

[whoismunky]

You know, IF all the things that SEAL assumed were correct (I put two of these in your heart and one in your head), then he'd be right.

But the penetration of most 9mm round doesn't always guarantee that they will actually get to your heart.


Agent Dove's 9mm shot from his S&W 459 in the 1986 Miami shootout would have incapacitated Platt had it penetrated further. (It was a side shot that entered the right side of his chest cavity).

In this case, Platt knew the difference between 9mm and perhaps some other caliber, because the 9mm let him continue fighting.

Agent Dove was killed.

THIS shot-- this specific shot is what drove the FBI to consider a different caliber. All of the rest of the FBI Miami shootout was an argument for moving to automatics instead of revolvers. But Dove's shot was the reason they considered a new caliber as well, not just moving to an existing 9mm or .45 ACP auto.

One COULD argue credibly that this shot from Agent Dove is the reason the .40 S&W exists. It was the genesis for all the events that led to the creation of the .40S&W.

I personally don't consider anything smaller than .380ACP to be worth considering for a protection role.

Yes, .25s and .32s can kill someone, just as .22LR can. But CAN kill someone and WILL are often miles apart. Usually that difference is shot placement, but caliber matters. It's not the only thing, and it's not everything, but it DOES matter.

This is the best post I've seen in the thread yet. Like Massad Ayoob said in "Shoot to Live," it's not all about capacity, it's not all about shot placement, it's not all about caliber - but they all matter.

 

[ghuns]

THIS shot-- this specific shot is what drove the FBI to consider a different caliber. All of the rest of the FBI Miami shootout was an argument for moving to automatics instead of revolvers. But Dove's shot was the reason they considered a new caliber as well, not just moving to an existing 9mm or .45 ACP auto.

One COULD argue credibly that this shot from Agent Dove is the reason the .40 S&W exists. It was the genesis for all the events that led to the creation of the .40S&W.

Didn't the FBI go to 10mm-1076 Smiths after the shootout? The 40S&W(small and weak) exists because the 10mm was too much gun for them FBI girly-men and S&W had to come up with something for them to shoot to keep the contract. Thus, the 10mm short was born.

Ever notice how the 9mm and .45 guys are real vocal, but the .40 crowd just flies under the radar? Jess askin'?

 

[rockhopper46038]

Jeez, guys; I thought everyone carried a 1911 .45ACP, a SIG P228 9mm and a S&W Bodyguard .380 - use the right tool for the right job!

 

[Hohn]

Didn't the FBI go to 10mm-1076 Smiths after the shootout? The 40S&W(small and weak) exists because the 10mm was too much gun for them FBI girly-men and S&W had to come up with something for them to shoot to keep the contract. Thus, the 10mm short was born.

Ever notice how the 9mm and .45 guys are real vocal, but the .40 crowd just flies under the radar? Jess askin'?

Actually, the full-house 10mm was never tested in the formal comparison and never issued for duty. The whole thing about wimpy Fibbies is a myth.

The reality is that the FBI had substantial data that said a faster round didn't really do much more than increase recoil. Thus, the original 10mm the FBI tested was already the "Fbi-Lite" load that was subsonic, and a far cry below the full-house Norma pressure levels (which would indicate 1200fps for a 200gr bullet). By comparison, the FBI load is 180gr @950fps.

The FBI had been evaluating the 10mm separately in another research program, and had concluded that the overall performance was excellent, but that "the high chamber pressures generated by the commercial loadings, with the resultant heavy recoil and muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round. Thefore the FBi Firearms Training Unit (FTU) decided to create a new loading for the 10mm, one with velocities comparable to those of competing 9mm and .45 cartridges. A 180gr hollowpoint bullet was acquired and loaded to a velocity of 950 fps. This not only matched the velocities of the other two cartridges, but dramatically reduced recoil and muzzle blast."

(FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin announcing the 10mm, Nov, 1989-- pages 6 and 7)

Not coincidentally are the current .40SW loadings in 180gr almost exact duplicates of the original FBI-lite loads.

Repeat-- the FBI *never* intended to use full power 10mm, and never issued such to ANY field agents. It was essentially .40SW all along.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

You know, IF all the things that SEAL assumed were correct (I put two of these in your heart and one in your head), then he'd be right.

But the penetration of most 9mm round doesn't always guarantee that they will actually get to your heart.


Agent Dove's 9mm shot from his S&W 459 in the 1986 Miami shootout would have incapacitated Platt had it penetrated further. (It was a side shot that entered the right side of his chest cavity).

In this case, Platt knew the difference between 9mm and perhaps some other caliber, because the 9mm let him continue fighting.

Agent Dove was killed.

THIS shot-- this specific shot is what drove the FBI to consider a different caliber. All of the rest of the FBI Miami shootout was an argument for moving to automatics instead of revolvers. But Dove's shot was the reason they considered a new caliber as well, not just moving to an existing 9mm or .45 ACP auto.

One COULD argue credibly that this shot from Agent Dove is the reason the .40 S&W exists. It was the genesis for all the events that led to the creation of the .40S&W.

I personally don't consider anything smaller than .380ACP to be worth considering for a protection role.

Yes, .25s and .32s can kill someone, just as .22LR can. But CAN kill someone and WILL are often miles apart. Usually that difference is shot placement, but caliber matters. It's not the only thing, and it's not everything, but it DOES matter.

I see some flaws in your reasoning. First off, do some research on ballistic testing using ballistic median. You'll see that 9mm, .40, and .45 projectiles penetrate to the same depth in most test cases. The difference being, the size of the temporary wound cavity. Ballistic jell is not the end all test median, but is used by the FBI and other agencies. Using one case, as you stated the FBI shootout is silly. There are other factors to consider besides shot placement and caliber size. Officers have died from gun shot wounds that where survivable, but they mentally gave up. Others have survived gun shot wounds that medically they should have not. You can just say, oh, if he would have been shot with a .45, he would have went down. There is no way to prove it. Handguns are not the best weapon for SD. However, are you going to carry a shotgun or rifle on your hip?

 

[Hookeye]

Ballistic gel is homogeneous. Bodies are not.

 

[Jeremiah]

The FBI did issue 10mm. the spec'd the 1076, and as they continued to download the round to accommodate all shooters in the FBI, they had excess case capacity, they cut the case down ( essentially making .38 special after .357 mag) and then the .40 was born, and was soon shoe horned into 9mm guns.

 

[tdoom15]

When all factors are considered, along with all the "yes, buts" "howevers," "on the other hands", there isn't any material difference among the 9, the .40, and the .45 when using ammunition that passes the FBI protocols for terminal performance.



One important factor to consider:

1. Caliber and ammunition are technical issues, while
2. Shot placement is a training issue.

Those two factors are independent--one is not controlled or impacted by the other. However, almost without fail, any discussion of caliber/ammunition introduces shot placement, but caliber/ammuniiton is not a function of training and vice versa.

I think we keep finding each other in these threads...and I honestly can't believe these threads STILL exist.

@ Hohn.....To compare ammunition from 1986 to todays modern defensive loads is comparing apples to oranges, however you are right in that that incident caused terminal ballistics in general to be completely reexamined.

To expound on what NIFT is saying, FBI standards exist and either ammo meets the penetration requirements, or it doesnt, regardless of caliber.

12" penetration in ballistic gel is deep enough to account for penetration of vital organs, through bone in a normal gun shot wound to the body with no intermediate barriers. Tests like the 4LD (4 layer denim) and AG (auto glass) are also good indicators of how the bullet will perform expansion wise while still meeting the 12" penetration requirement.

To understand terminal ballistics, you need to first understand how a bullet is intended to stop the human body. This can be done in 3 different ways.

1.) psycholigically: A person realizes he is hit and gives up the will to fight.
2.) Destroying the CNS (central nervous system): A shot to the brain or spinal cord.
3.) Creating enough blood loss that the body can no longer physically function.

9mm, .40, .45 all have loads that meet and exceed penetration requirements in the human body. The differences come in expansion diameter and penetration of intermediate barriers. For example: Good expansion of a 124gr 9mm bullet would be .64", .40 180gr bullet around .69", and .45acp 230gr around .75". Obviously there is a difference in those numbers, but they are minimal.

How "hard" a bullet hits has nothing to do with how it performs on the human body. This is the common misconception people make from seeing a 230gr bullet hit a steel plate vs a 124gr bullet. The idea is to create blood loss by poking holes and destroying organs and/or the CNS, not "knock someone over" (your bullets won't do that for the record). In addition, the larger temporary wound cavity of .40 and .45 means absolutely nothing in terms of damage caused or the ability to put someone down. It's all about creating blood loss or destroying the CNS, nothing else.

So whats the bottom line? For civilians, it's a no brainer to me, 9mm all the way. Higher capacity, faster follow up shots, cheaper to train with, etc etc. LEO's that work around a lot more intermediate barriers on a daily basis and get free ammo to train with, it's really whatever caliber you feel most comfortable with.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Ballistic gel is homogeneous. Bodies are not.

Exactly why I said it's not the end all test median. However, whenever comparing ballistics, the same median needs to be used. Or else, the test means jack ****.

 

[9mmfan]

Actually, the full-house 10mm was never tested in the formal comparison and never issued for duty. The whole thing about wimpy Fibbies is a myth.

The reality is that the FBI had substantial data that said a faster round didn't really do much more than increase recoil. Thus, the original 10mm the FBI tested was already the "Fbi-Lite" load that was subsonic, and a far cry below the full-house Norma pressure levels (which would indicate 1200fps for a 200gr bullet). By comparison, the FBI load is 180gr @950fps.

The FBI had been evaluating the 10mm separately in another research program, and had concluded that the overall performance was excellent, but that "the high chamber pressures generated by the commercial loadings, with the resultant heavy recoil and muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round. Thefore the FBi Firearms Training Unit (FTU) decided to create a new loading for the 10mm, one with velocities comparable to those of competing 9mm and .45 cartridges. A 180gr hollowpoint bullet was acquired and loaded to a velocity of 950 fps. This not only matched the velocities of the other two cartridges, but dramatically reduced recoil and muzzle blast."

(FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin announcing the 10mm, Nov, 1989-- pages 6 and 7)

Not coincidentally are the current .40SW loadings in 180gr almost exact duplicates of the original FBI-lite loads.

Repeat-- the FBI *never* intended to use full power 10mm, and never issued such to ANY field agents. It was essentially .40SW all along.

Too bad Glock hadn't come out with their 20 and 29 yet. I have a G20SF and it is awesome! I have shot 'full power rounds' from it and it is VERY controllable and I dare say has less 'boom' than my GP 100 while shooting full magnum loads.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Jeez, guys; I thought everyone carried a 1911 .45ACP, a SIG P228 9mm and a S&W Bodyguard .380 - use the right tool for the right job!

I used to, but I had to drop down to one handgun when I started carrying my AK and AR. I ran out of pouches.

 

[tdoom15]

A bullet doesn't need to travel 12" into the human body to penetrate organs. The reason 12" is required in ballistic gelatin is to account for bones, muscle, etc.

 

[hcsdstan]

I believe by todays ballistics standards for factory ammo that caliber isnt necessarily the most important factor anymore.