How long did it take you be "good"?

[Trapper Jim]

The person who comes in last at a match is far better than those that won't try. The competitor has Faced his Fear, overcame humility, tested his self and equipment. met friends, got advice and most importantly set a benchmark to improve upon. It is from this point on that determines what becomes of the skill set with this individual. Or he can stay home and play video games.

 

[churchmouse]

So, how does the average gun owner become better than average without coming to a match? Do you advocate they train and practice until they are better than average? And how will they know when they cross that threshold?

What about the person who doesn't want an award, but they want to still participate? I assume there will always be people who finish near the bottom and one at the very bottom.

Do some folks shoot matches for the express purpose of becoming better with no intent of actually being competitive?

When I was in high school, I asked the swim coach if I could come to swim practice because I was not a good swimmer. He said yes and being exposed to coaching and the team improved my abilities rapidly to the point he started putting me in meets. I can can still swim Iron man distances and I even beat some pros at the last IM I did. That big step out of my comfort zone got me hooked on swimming and competing.

Could that happen to someone who came to a match?

What is "GOOD" when you are being timed. So many factors.
I hit about everything I aim at. Seldom miss. Seldom and only then it is at the end of what ever we are doing as to competing. Easier to get tired these days but we all miss on occasion. "Fast"....that is another factor. Shots on target. Fast comes with practice but age will effect this as our vision fads a bit.

If I place mid pack I am happy. It is usually time that pushes me down in the overall. And the occasional blunder as to sequence. Shots on target is hardly ever an issue.

How do you define "Good" personally.
I am adequate. I hit what I aim at. I am just a touch slow on transitions.

 

[gregkl]

The person who comes in last at a match is far better than those that won't try. The competitor has Faced his Fear, overcame humility, tested his self and equipment. met friends, got advice and most importantly set a benchmark to improve upon. It is from this point on that determines what becomes of the skill set with this individual. Or he can stay home and play video games.

This is spot on in my opinion. Everyone has to start somewhere.

When I started shooting Trap, I was in the single digits. I was fortunate that the older guys in that sport really wanted to help and I listened. I still haven't shot my first 25 but I got much better as I practiced and had guys watching me to tell me where I went wrong.

 

[MuncieFud]

So, how does the average gun owner become better than average without coming to a match? Do you advocate they train and practice until they are better than average? And how will they know when they cross that threshold?

What about the person who doesn't want an award, but they want to still participate? I assume there will always be people who finish near the bottom and one at the very bottom.

Do some folks shoot matches for the express purpose of becoming better with no intent of actually being competitive?

When I was in high school, I asked the swim coach if I could come to swim practice because I was not a good swimmer. He said yes

I think you absolutely could become a better shooter without going to a match. The problem is most people aren’t going to put in the work. Competitive shooters don’t have any real secret sauce but, they put in the work. Before competition I kinda knew what dry fire was but it wasn’t until I wanted to get better that I bought a book about it and made it part of my daily routine. Most people (myself included) go out and shoot 50-200 rounds at a target or two then leave. Real training isn’t just shooting at paper and seeing where the holes end up. Now I make a plan about what I need to work on before I go to the range. I shoot 200 rounds a week usually on two drills that focus on a similar skill.

Think of matches like swim meets, the meets don’t make you better it’s the training for the meets.

If you just shoot one match a month you will get better. Most people never shoot with any pressure, a match will give you that. If you want to be “good” you have to put in work.

 

[rhino]

I will let everyone know that I know that I am "good" when it happens. For example, if I get motivated and start practicing enough to get an "M," card, you'll be hard pressed to find someone in the gun community that I didn't just tell all about it.

After that momentous event, I will then commence to issuing advice to others as to how they too can know when they"good."ADVISORY: Everyone I know should refrain from holding their breath waiting for that event. I know I won't!

 

[nakinate]

I will let everyone know that I know that I am "good" when it happens. For example, if I get motivated and start practicing enough to get an "M," card, you'll be hard pressed to find someone in the gun community that I didn't just tell all about it.

After that momentous event, I will then commence to issuing advice to others as to how they too can know when they"good."ADVISORY: Everyone I know should refrain from holding their breath waiting for that event. I know I won't!

Haha, I’d probably be the same way. But then I could go to a level 2 or 3 match and I’d immediately stop feeling good about myself.

 

[rhino]

Haha, I’d probably be the same way. But then I could go to a level 2 or 3 match and I’d immediately stop feeling good about myself.

Fortunately, my self-esteem is not attached to my performance on the range!

Even if I had an M card, I'd continue to get my ass kicked in real matches by everyone who could move faster than I can (which means . . . everyone).

 

[rvb]

I've been shooting IDPA and USPSA for a while now and I'm leaps and bounds better than I was five months ago. I still look at my competition locally and feel like I'm not "good". I say "good" because I don't know how you define it. How do you personally define good? What happened in your shooting that made you feel like you were "good"?

What are your goals? To make a certain class? To beat a certain competitor? To win a local match? To win a major match? National Champion? Or is it less competition oriented, eg to be able to defend yourself/family, or just know how to handle a gun so you don't endanger yourself or anyone else? All are "good."

Removed from the competition world (and keeping this pistol oriented), I think to be "good" you have to be able to hit your target consistently in a "reasonable" time. It's a fluid definition, but if I put an ipsc target out at 10 yards you should be able to hit the A on your first shot, and not take 30 seconds to do it. That doesn't mean you have to actually hit the letter "A" and it doesn't mean it has to be a 1.0 draw, but there is an expectation of a good hit. If a shooter can't do that and they give me some excuse like "they haven't practiced in a couple weeks" or "I'm not used to this gun" then they aren't a "good" shooter. A "good" shooter should never make you nervous w/ a gun in their hand (sweeping, finger on trigger, not know how to manipulate the gun, etc). Look to this thread for examples of BAD shooters.... https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics-training/450408-rsos-view-world-training-lack.html

In terms of competition I know guys that I think are "good" shooters, even "great" shooters that are C or B class, it's just been that moving up the ranks in competition hasn't been a goal for them, or plateau'd, whatever.

If your issue is that you feel you should be performing better in competition, then you need to set goals. Define what is "good" to YOU. Goals need to be measurable (national class %, rank in local match, beating a competitor, El Prez w/ a certain HF, etc) and you need a timeline. For significant goals (like Division win at a major) you need milestone goals along the way. I used to have a sig line quote from Abe Lincoln, " A goal properly set is halfway reached."

-rvb

 

[Leonidas]

Shooting is one of the things you can actually improve. There are “natural shooters” like natural athletes, who are solid from the start. But I’ve certainly seen below average shooters rise way up with reps. It’s a slow progression, but creating the mechanics and muscle memory of good smooth technique is the key. People waste a lot of money on shooting courses that would be better spent on ammo and range time. Quality trigger time is everything.

 

[AppliedB]

My definition of "good" has evolved quite a bit over time.

My very first match was an IDPA match about 10 years ago that Drew talked me into going to. At the time I was one of the better shooters at the police department I worked for so I assumed I would perform well at the match (I can hear you all laughing as I type this). Naturally, I learned very quickly that day that I was not, in fact, "good" at all.

For me that was a wake up call. I had a lot to learn and I set about doing so. Over the following five years I shot matches periodically and attained a level I considered "good" at the time. I could only shoot occasionally since I worked half the weekends and seemed to have other obligations on the ones I was off. I wasn't winning matches but I performed well and was far more confident with my pistol than I had been before.

Then I bought Applied Ballistics. I worked two full time jobs for a year and a half and didn't shoot a single match. My skills were still decent but were sliding a bit. When I left the PD and went to working the range full time my weekends freed up and I began shooting seriously about three years ago. In that time I've shot quite a few matches with some very skilled shooters and even though I've made GM in PCC and M in Single Stack (almost there in open and limited) I now have experienced far harder competition. I'm a much better shooter than when I used to think I was "good" but I still feel I have a long way to go.

My advice is to forget about "good" and pick a goal. Whether that goal is to bump classification or finish in the top 10 at your local match or win your division doesn't really matter. Find something that seems hard but not impossible and work at it. Once you attain it, pick another goal. While working toward these goals shoot with people that are better than you are. Watch what they do, ask for advice, and learn.

 

[longbeard]

What are your goals? To make a certain class? To beat a certain competitor? To win a local match? To win a major match? National Champion? Or is it less competition oriented, eg to be able to defend yourself/family, or just know how to handle a gun so you don't endanger yourself or anyone else? All are "good."

Removed from the competition world (and keeping this pistol oriented), I think to be "good" you have to be able to hit your target consistently in a "reasonable" time. It's a fluid definition, but if I put an ipsc target out at 10 yards you should be able to hit the A on your first shot, and not take 30 seconds to do it. That doesn't mean you have to actually hit the letter "A" and it doesn't mean it has to be a 1.0 draw, but there is an expectation of a good hit. If a shooter can't do that and they give me some excuse like "they haven't practiced in a couple weeks" or "I'm not used to this gun" then they aren't a "good" shooter. A "good" shooter should never make you nervous w/ a gun in their hand (sweeping, finger on trigger, not know how to manipulate the gun, etc). Look to this thread for examples of BAD shooters.... https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics-training/450408-rsos-view-world-training-lack.html

In terms of competition I know guys that I think are "good" shooters, even "great" shooters that are C or B class, it's just been that moving up the ranks in competition hasn't been a goal for them, or plateau'd, whatever.

If your issue is that you feel you should be performing better in competition, then you need to set goals. Define what is "good" to YOU. Goals need to be measurable (national class %, rank in local match, beating a competitor, El Prez w/ a certain HF, etc) and you need a timeline. For significant goals (like Division win at a major) you need milestone goals along the way. I used to have a sig line quote from Abe Lincoln, " A goal properly set is halfway reached."

-rvb

Well said. I've been lurking here watching the comments. The one thing that stuck out in my mind was "Good at what"? USPSA is a game. It takes good gun fundamentals to play it. Once you have those you are likely a good shooter, but perhaps not an exceptional USPSA competitor because the game itself has a whole other skill set you need to learn. You can observe this in the different disciplines. Being an exceptional steel shooter does not mean you can shoot USPSA well and vice versa. Solid fundamentals are required for both games, but each game requires a different skill set to excel at competing.

I'll wager any B class USPSA shooter can take their non-competing buddies to the range and seem like a trained assassin. For that matter, I'd happily take a C class competitor on my side in an altercation.
If you can safely negotiate a field course you are good shooter. How fast and accurately you can do it determines your competitive level. If the squad is backing up when you are at the line you may have some work to do....

 

[rhino]

Shooting is one of the things you can actually improve. There are “natural shooters” like natural athletes, who are solid from the start. But I’ve certainly seen below average shooters rise way up with reps. It’s a slow progression, but creating the mechanics and muscle memory of good smooth technique is the key. People waste a lot of money on shooting courses that would be better spent on ammo and range time. Quality trigger time is everything.

The only people who waste money on their shooting courses are the people who choose to not practice what they learned afterward. You're correct that quality trigger time is critically important, but how does a new shooter learn how and what to practice? Some can get it from youtube videos, but some benefit a lot more from learning from a live person who can observe, correct, and coach them.

 

[AppliedB]

The only people who waste money on their shooting courses are the people who choose to not practice what they learned afterward. You're correct that quality trigger time is critically important, but how does a new shooter learn how and what to practice? Some can get it from youtube videos, but some benefit a lot more from learning from a live person who can observe, correct, and coach them.

There is no substitute for learning from someone that can provide useful critique. I was mostly self taught with a handgun because everyone in my family that was a shooter was a hunter and only shot rifles and shotguns. I started shooting handguns at age 15 and developed some pretty terrible habits. It wasn't until I received formal training that I really started to get "good".

I still take classes. I spend more time with self directed practice than with classes but there is benefit to learning from others.

 

[Coach]

Shooting is one of the things you can actually improve. There are “natural shooters” like natural athletes, who are solid from the start. But I’ve certainly seen below average shooters rise way up with reps. It’s a slow progression, but creating the mechanics and muscle memory of good smooth technique is the key. People waste a lot of money on shooting courses that would be better spent on ammo and range time. Quality trigger time is everything.

Burning ammo without being fundamentally sound is very counter productive. Most people are not able to have quality trigger time without instruction.

 

[gregkl]

I'll wager any B class USPSA shooter can take their non-competing buddies to the range and seem like a trained assassin. For that matter, I'd happily take a C class competitor on my side in an altercation.
If you can safely negotiate a field course you are good shooter. How fast and accurately you can do it determines your competitive level. If the squad is backing up when you are at the line you may have some work to do....

When I have gone to a match (mostly to observe) I was amazed at the ability of the competitors. I really thought that kind of shooting was Hollywood stunts.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Burning ammo without being fundamentally sound is very counter productive. Most people are not able to have quality trigger time without instruction.

This is right on. But it does not stop with ammo, most people can’t get past an eval with the crap equipment they bought. Many times I see a Graduate of YTU and a staunch reader of Tactical Times shooters blog that has drank the Death Merchants Koolaid on just what it is they gotta have. They will ultimately spend thousands relearning their bad habits before a few hundred on one on one training. Go figure.

 

[Bosshoss]

After reading this thread a couple of thoughts.

OP while it is fun to chase others and even have some friendly competition don't make that your focus.
When you're on the line and RO says "make ready" the next few seconds are all about you and not what so and so or your friend did.
Like Max said above make a stage plan and do it with no or minimum mistakes. As you get better you will adjust your stage plans to fit your strong points and weaknesses to minimize mistakes.

Newer shooters to USPSA need to realize that besides Safety being a priority there are two separate area they need to work on to improve their match performance.
Shooting is what most focus on and they are lots of drills and dryfire routines to work on those. Most field courses will have you looking at your sights 25-35% of the total time. This is the smallest area to look for improvement but the most fun. Now if you are throwing several mikes per stage then it might be more important to work on your accuracy than your speed.
The other area for improvement and the biggest area is everything you do that isn't pulling the trigger like movement and stage planning.
It is very difficult for most to separate the shooting and everything else. If you are shooting lots of A's and a few C's in a stage then that is a decent(shooting) speed for your skill level but if you are running by targets and forgetting to shoot targets and getting lost in the course of fire then you need to slow down the movement part of the stage and work on your planning. The hard part is not slowing down the shooting part when you slow down the movement part. This goes the other way also, if you are not having too much trouble getting through the stage but are getting poor hits then you need to shoot a little slower (until you learn to shoot faster) without slowing your movement.

To touch on the getting training comments. That can be a big help if you get the right trainer and it can help if you have a specific problem that they can help you with. Lots of GM's and Master class shooters made it with no training classes and they figured it out themselves at least good enough to get them where they are.
Training can definitely shorten the trip.


The last thing and main reason I wanted to respond is the shooters that are setting on the fence about shooting.
At the local matches the majority of the shooters are C class and most of them are just there to shoot and have fun. Just shooting matches you will get better but I know shooters that have been shooting for many years and have stayed the same skill level. You know what? NO one cares. They are safe and having fun with friends. There are some really good shooters at the local matches also and they are competitive and focused but still while the are not shooting and focused on the stage they are there to have fun.
I'm too old is a silly reason to not shoot USPSA. Yeah you probably won't be a national champion but who cares.
Many of the shooters at a match are "older" including myself. I'm 60 and overweight and have bad eyes and I can still do it and there are lots more out there that are also doing it. LOTS of 60 and 70+ year old shooters. Are they as good as they used to be? No but still competitive and having way more fun than those that don't shoot.
All those shooters with fancy shirts on and blazing speed all started with a first match that they didn't know what they were doing or weren't very good.

While competition isn't for everyone I think if you try it you will have fun and learn to shoot better(if you want to) and meet some great people and make some new friends.

 

[gregkl]

After reading this thread a couple of thoughts.

OP while it is fun to chase others and even have some friendly competition don't make that your focus.
When you're on the line and RO says "make ready" the next few seconds are all about you and not what so and so or your friend did.
Like Max said above make a stage plan and do it with no or minimum mistakes. As you get better you will adjust your stage plans to fit your strong points and weaknesses to minimize mistakes.

Newer shooters to USPSA need to realize that besides Safety being a priority there are two separate area they need to work on to improve their match performance.
Shooting is what most focus on and they are lots of drills and dryfire routines to work on those. Most field courses will have you looking at your sights 25-35% of the total time. This is the smallest area to look for improvement but the most fun. Now if you are throwing several mikes per stage then it might be more important to work on your accuracy than your speed.
The other area for improvement and the biggest area is everything you do that isn't pulling the trigger like movement and stage planning.
It is very difficult for most to separate the shooting and everything else. If you are shooting lots of A's and a few C's in a stage then that is a decent(shooting) speed for your skill level but if you are running by targets and forgetting to shoot targets and getting lost in the course of fire then you need to slow down the movement part of the stage and work on your planning. The hard part is not slowing down the shooting part when you slow down the movement part. This goes the other way also, if you are not having too much trouble getting through the stage but are getting poor hits then you need to shoot a little slower (until you learn to shoot faster) without slowing your movement.

To touch on the getting training comments. That can be a big help if you get the right trainer and it can help if you have a specific problem that they can help you with. Lots of GM's and Master class shooters made it with no training classes and they figured it out themselves at least good enough to get them where they are.
Training can definitely shorten the trip.


The last thing and main reason I wanted to respond is the shooters that are setting on the fence about shooting.
At the local matches the majority of the shooters are C class and most of them are just there to shoot and have fun. Just shooting matches you will get better but I know shooters that have been shooting for many years and have stayed the same skill level. You know what? NO one cares. They are safe and having fun with friends. There are some really good shooters at the local matches also and they are competitive and focused but still while the are not shooting and focused on the stage they are there to have fun.
I'm too old is a silly reason to not shoot USPSA. Yeah you probably won't be a national champion but who cares.
Many of the shooters at a match are "older" including myself. I'm 60 and overweight and have bad eyes and I can still do it and there are lots more out there that are also doing it. LOTS of 60 and 70+ year old shooters. Are they as good as they used to be? No but still competitive and having way more fun than those that don't shoot.
All those shooters with fancy shirts on and blazing speed all started with a first match that they didn't know what they were doing or weren't very good.

While competition isn't for everyone I think if you try it you will have fun and learn to shoot better(if you want to) and meet some great people and make some new friends.

Excellent post boss! A couple of questions; when you say you are only looking at your sights for 25-35% of the time is the rest of the time spent looking where you are moving to, looking at your target, looking at your reloading. etc.?

And what is a "mike"? Complete miss of the target?

As far as fancy shirts and blazing speed, my brother started shooting IDPA with his son. My brother was slow but accurate in the beginning usually finishing an entire match with 0 points down. Now 5 years later he is moving up the classifications and winning matches. He went to the TN state match and won his division (or whatever it's called) and got bumped another classification. He now wears a fancy shirt though it is something to do with his "old farts that shoot" group of guys he shoots with.

On another note, he will tell you that even though he has been shooting all his life, his ability to shoot both fast and accurate improved when he befriended a Grand Master that took him under his wing. That was when he really advanced.

 

[nakinate]

When I have gone to a match (mostly to observe) I was amazed at the ability of the competitors. I really thought that kind of shooting was Hollywood stunts.

This is exactly how I felt the first time I went to a match.

I feel like my progression is slow. It’d be interesting to allow myself from 2 years ago to see me shoot now. That might give me better perspective on my progress.

 

[Bosshoss]

Excellent post boss! A couple of questions; when you say you are only looking at your sights for 25-35% of the time is the rest of the time spent looking where you are moving to, looking at your target, looking at your reloading. etc.?

Yes focusing on reloading and getting to the next shooting position as quickly as possible.

And what is a "mike"? Complete miss of the target?

Yes it is a miss. Sorry for using range slang.

As far as fancy shirts and blazing speed, my brother started shooting IDPA with his son. My brother was slow but accurate in the beginning usually finishing an entire match with 0 points down. Now 5 years later he is moving up the classifications and winning matches. He went to the TN state match and won his division (or whatever it's called) and got bumped another classification. He now wears a fancy shirt though it is something to do with his "old farts that shoot" group of guys he shoots with.

On another note, he will tell you that even though he has been shooting all his life, his ability to shoot both fast and accurate improved when he befriended a Grand Master that took him under his wing. That was when he really advanced.

About those shirts.
Don't worry about them. They are 99% of the time shirts shooters have received when signing up for and shooting a major match. It has nothing to do with skill level.
They are nice shirts as they are made of the dri-tech material and are a lot cooler and don't stay wet with sweat for hours. It's all I wear in the summer.

Having someone help you during a match definitely is a advantage but too much help can overwhelm you.
I will help anyone who asks for help the best I can. I try not to offer too much help as I don't want to confuse them. Sometimes when I see someone struggling or I know someone well I will offer advice. Good or bad.