I Don't Get It....am I stupid!!??

[lovemachine]

Ooooo lovers quarrel

He ate my last piece of turkey bacon...

 

[WebSnyper]

. Used to be; knowing a man was a current gun owner/collector, an active benchrest shooter, and normal (albeit conservative) decent working citizen.... that, and a handshake was good enough for most people.

The problem is that when selling on the internet, you typically don't know the person. In any case, one of the great things about capitalism is that you take your money to the supplier you feel is the best combination of things you value, and that as a seller you have freedom regarding who you do business with.

Also, I'm sure most people would have accepted other documentation or if you offered to do a transfer with an FFL (even though not required) then they would accept that in place of the LTCH, if you choose to do business with them.

 

[mkbar80]

If you don't have an LTCH, you could also have a limited criminal history done from ISP. It's $15, and you can print it from your own computer.

Indiana State Police - Limited Criminal History Search

If someone didn't have an LTCH, this could be an alternative. In reality, this and a DL would be better proof that someone is currently legal to own a firearm.

 

[GREEN607]

If you don't have an LTCH, you could also have a limited criminal history done from ISP. It's $15, and you can print it from your own computer.

Indiana State Police - Limited Criminal History Search

If someone didn't have an LTCH, this could be an alternative. In reality, this and a DL would be better proof that someone is currently legal to own a firearm.

That was what I proposed in my second or third post in this thread. And as I said there, I always have a 'current' one, as well as being bonded (for business and employment purposes). Just don't have the LTCH, yet.

So, I missed out on another great rifle deal. Oh, well.

 

[Zoub]

I'm proud to be a dumbass kool-aid drinking sheep!!

I am grinning because I think that would make a great sign on Wall Street AND I have a glass of grape flavored drink right now. I am no fan of grape BUT I love the mellow flavor of Food Club Grape flavored drink mix. It is my "new thing" and I highly recommend it for all sheep.

In defense of the Sheep, some years ago, before all this internet and craigslist stuff, I sold a vehicle for cash to a stranger. I had a vibe, quized him and his GF a lot during the sale. He kept telling the GF to shut up, not talk so much. I got a lot of details and wrote down all my notes and saved them on my calendar/organizer at work.........................................

6 months later when two, not one but two FBI agents came to my work place to discuss that sale with me they were surprised I had notes. They also loved all the detailed pics I had of that vehicle. BUT STILL it did seem odd that the heads of a 3 state stolen car ring with dozens of stolen cars would legally purchase a vehicle from me.

Yes it would seem odd except he bought it for HIS GF to use and clearly he had scruples. He didn't want her driving around in a stolen vehicle. So I signed an affidavit, provided pictures and agreed to testify (there is more to the story) and missed a meeting at work.

Yeah, so I never sell guns or anything on the web to strangers and I rarely buy that way so I can talk big because you all can kiss my ass. But if I were buying, I am not showing you anything. Again, talk is cheap and my pontification is free but I say tell the sheep to bite it!

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Read again - Rifles. You do *not* need a LTCH to transport a rifle to a range, or anywhere for that matter. You can walk downtown with AR strapped to your back with no LTCH.

That said - I pretty much agree with the general sentiment. Yeah - it sucks. But, you gotta go by the seller's rules. It's their gun.

I meant to say handguns. He said that he had taken handguns to the range before, he did not state it was in Misouri.

 

[RichardR]

I always ask to see an LTCH, even if I am selling a long-gun.

It's nothing personal, I just want that little assurance that the person I am selling to is considered a "proper person" by the state of Indiana - nothing more nothing less.

 

[billybob44]

My take on this subject

Well, I can say this for sure. I never expected to get jumped on the way I have been, for posting this thread. I lived 'away from Indiana' for years..... and gun owners attitudes sure seem to have changed, where "friendly" private sales are concerned. Used to be; knowing a man was a current gun owner/collector, an active benchrest shooter, and normal (albeit conservative) decent working citizen.... that, and a handshake was good enough for most people.

Sad to see everyone has gotten so 'paranoid'. After all, how many felons and "straw-buyers" do you think.....are wanting a rim fire rifle, in Central Indiana?

Here is what I see on this topic:

1. "get jumped on"-NOT that I can see.
2. "gun owners attitudes sure seem to have changed" YES, the World has did it to us.
3. "knowing a man was a current gun owner" HOW do you KNOW a stranger?
4. "a handshake was good enough for most people" NOT anymore=make SURE that ALL fingers come back to you on the "handshake". YES -more undesirables out there!
5. "gotten so 'paranoid'." I would say CAREFUL of crooks.
6. "wanting a rim fire rifle, in Central Indiana?"-A rim fire caliber has KILLED more people in this world than any other caliber.
Wanting to see a pink LTCH to ME is the easiest way for ME to try to assure MYSELF that the buyer is "A Proper Person"
GREEN, try this: run a thread, with a poll: "How many out there with a LTCH?"
"How many out there with a current,and updated criminal background check?"

This IS a firearms Forum, and I would bet that the results of the poll would show that most of us have a current LTCH.
On your example of missing a buy due to no LTCH, on your part, I would have posted "I'll take it"-followed up by a PM, for a phone #, followed up by a phone call to explain to the seller your complete-updated criminal background check.
I would say that IF you had done this, you would now be the proud owner of a new 10-22 rifle??
JUST my 2 cents worth..YMMV...Bill

 

[DRob]

Note to self!

I am grinning because I think that would make a great sign on Wall Street AND I have a glass of grape flavored drink right now. I am no fan of grape BUT I love the mellow flavor of Food Club Grape flavored drink mix. It is my "new thing" and I highly recommend it for all sheep.

In defense of the Sheep, some years ago, before all this internet and craigslist stuff, I sold a vehicle for cash to a stranger. I had a vibe, quized him and his GF a lot during the sale. He kept telling the GF to shut up, not talk so much. I got a lot of details and wrote down all my notes and saved them on my calendar/organizer at work.........................................

6 months later when two, not one but two FBI agents came to my work place to discuss that sale with me they were surprised I had notes. They also loved all the detailed pics I had of that vehicle. BUT STILL it did seem odd that the heads of a 3 state stolen car ring with dozens of stolen cars would legally purchase a vehicle from me.

Yes it would seem odd except he bought it for HIS GF to use and clearly he had scruples. He didn't want her driving around in a stolen vehicle. So I signed an affidavit, provided pictures and agreed to testify (there is more to the story) and missed a meeting at work.

Yeah, so I never sell guns or anything on the web to strangers and I rarely buy that way so I can talk big because you all can kiss my ass. But if I were buying, I am not showing you anything. Again, talk is cheap and my pontification is free but I say tell the sheep to bite it!

Note to self: One more smooth-talker to mark off the potential buyers list.

 

[ckcollins2003]

I don't get the whole LTCH for a long gun thing either Green. I know people say, "for peace of mind" blah blah blah, but why not just have them sign a bill of sale? Have it state that they are legally allowed to own a firearm and are a resident of Indiana.

I'm one of those people that doesn't have an LTCH. However I also generally ask them if the LTCH is a must since I don't need one to carry the rifle. I also tell them that I am willing to sign a bill of sale and let them see my drivers license if need be.

I don't carry a handgun so I'm not going to spend $125 on a pink piece of paper to buy a long gun and I don't blame you for not wanting to do it either. The law states that you cannot sell a firearm to a person who you KNOW is a felon or incapable of owning a firearm. Heck, someone could have bought an LTCH then comitted a felony afterwards and still have a copy of it. I would think someone as a seller is better off not asking for for an LTCH and just having the buyer sign a bill of sale. If that person signs it and states that they are legally allowed to own a firearm then the seller is within every right of selling it to that person.

The comment came up that the buyer may be an undercover ATF agent. Lets say they are... if you just ask for a drivers license (fake) and an LTCH with their name on it (fake) then you could potentially find yourself in a bad spot. However if they willingly admit to being legally able to own a firearm and that they are a resident of Indiana then the ATF agent will have no justifiable clause to press charges because he comitted fraud by signing that piece of paper.

LTCH for a long gun=no
Bill of sale=yes

 

[dross]

Personally, I see no need to be an auxiliary policeman and help the state with their enforcement duties. My duty as a citizen according to the law is to not KNOWINGLY sell to a person not legal to buy it.

"Is it legal for you to buy a firearm?" I ask. My duty is complete. In fact, I've gone above and beyond my duty.

 

[Kelzo]

The way I see it is all transactions are simply an agreement of terms. No shoes, No shirt no service or LTCH required. it is all the same. If I do not agree on the terms I take my money elsewhere.

 

[4x4]

Anybody who requires you to show them an LTCH and then preaches about being pro constitutional carry is a hypocrite in my opinion.

 

[GREEN607]

Here's another thing about all this, that really irks me.

Some of the same people who have stated in this thread that they "would not sell me a rifle or any kind of gun, without me being willing to show a 'pink slip' that I've never had....... well, I'd bet a years pay, that some of these same people would ***** and raise a rant (maybe even start a thread about it here on INGO)...... if they came across this situation (keep reading)....

Your 18yr-old or 19yr-old son, needs rimfire ammo to go on his squirrel hunt this week-end. He goes to Walmart, and decides to buy ten boxes of Remington Golden bullets (.22LR cal). But the clerk, asks for his ID...... and refuses to sell him the ammo...... because, store policy says no one under the age of 21 can buy ammo that can be used in a handgun. The clerk says, "No." So your son asks to speak to a manager. Manager comes 'round... and tells your son the same thing. "This caliber ammo can be used in a handgun, so we can't sell it to you."

All you guys who said "no sale" without a LTCH: Go ahead, try to tell me you're not gonna' get furious about that, and rant. Same thing........ as I see it.

 

[mcolford]

If I were in that situation, I would gladly take my money elsewhere. The law says an 18y.o. can purchase for a long gun. I had this discussion with my town marshall.

The clerk can not sell to someone under 21 years of age if the ammo is for a rifle. For instance I work at a gun shop and a 19 y.o. comes in and wants to buy a box of .22 (an ammo that can be in a handgun or rifle). I ask him what hes using it for, he says a handgun, I cant sell it to him. Now if he said hes going to use it in his Marlin 60 rifle, then thats fine, he gives me the cash, I give him a receipt and tell him to have a nice day.

The clerk can not deny sale because the caliber of round can be used in a handgun as well as a rifle, but if you are under 21 and say its for a handgun, then you have cooked your own goose. Im well past 21, and I dont tell the clerk at Crap-Mart what my ammo is for, as its none of their business!


-MColford

 

[msd]

What's up with people who advertise a long gun (rifle) for sale in our INGO classifieds.......who demand to see a LTCH at the time of the sale?

I own a few handguns, and I've taken some of them to the range to shoot targets. But I have never felt the need to 'carry' in public, as a general rule, and thus, I have never applied for a LTCH. When I lived in Missouri, you could open carry with no LTCH; no permit, etc. I carried a few times there, when actually hunting with a revolver...... but still didn't carry when out and about for 'normal' business and so on.

What about the practice of asking for a relatively current LE 'background check' document? Does anyone here do that? Seems to me like one of those would be just as relevant/legitimate.... and I always have such a document, and am, in fact, bonded (for employment purposes).

I would think a lot of people would get turned off, even pissed off, when there's a gun they want to buy..... but the seller demands to see a LTCH. Am I wrong?

Green,
I dont know if it was posted or not, I wasn't going to go thru ea and every post.
But I agree with you on the LTCH and it's just another scam of the gov'ts.
But you taking your handguns to the range without the permits as required by the gov't is in itself breaking the law.
Unless you're bonded by the federal gov't to carry, that supersedes
Indiana laws.

Maybe I'm wrong and they changed this law, I haven't followed or noticed any changes for better over a decade since I got my pink slip, actually it's been 19 yrs ago, now that I think about it. Decade ago I went lifetime, I think.
If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me so that I'm more informed.

 

[msd]

Here's another thing about all this, that really irks me.

Some of the same people who have stated in this thread that they "would not sell me a rifle or any kind of gun, without me being willing to show a 'pink slip' that I've never had....... well, I'd bet a years pay, that some of these same people would ***** and raise a rant (maybe even start a thread about it here on INGO)...... if they came across this situation (keep reading)....

Your 18yr-old or 19yr-old son, needs rimfire ammo to go on his squirrel hunt this week-end. He goes to Walmart, and decides to buy ten boxes of Remington Golden bullets (.22LR cal). But the clerk, asks for his ID...... and refuses to sell him the ammo...... because, store policy says no one under the age of 21 can buy ammo that can be used in a handgun. The clerk says, "No." So your son asks to speak to a manager. Manager comes 'round... and tells your son the same thing. "This caliber ammo can be used in a handgun, so we can't sell it to you."

All you guys who said "no sale" without a LTCH: Go ahead, try to tell me you're not gonna' get furious about that, and rant. Same thing........ as I see it.

I understand your worth on this issue. i would probably rant and rave also, if I didn't have my LTCH. But I do have it. Indiana law requires it for me to take my handguns to the range and because when I go into metro or bigger cities, I carry.
For me that was the reason 19 yrs ago. Because I wanted to carry, plus I deer hunt with pistols.
But like I said in my previous post, I understand and agree about the LTCH. I feel like it's my freedom under the 2A to protect myself and my family whether it's on my property or off, without having to have a permit to do so.

As an offshoot to this I rant and go into a rage everytime I buy beer in Walmart and have to show my id. It embarrasses my wife, but damn I passed the under 21 look a long time ago

 

[KG1]

I think the key word here is "Knowingly" as in "Must have prior knowledge" sell a firearm to a person that is deemed to be not proper. I usually just ask to see an Indiana DL and state in the ad as a Disclaimer that the buyer MUST be able to legally purchase and own firearms. The most i'll do is ask a buyer to sign a bill of sale stating that fact. If at any point in time I get a bad vibe from a potential buyer then the deal is off. Just use a little common sense.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Green,
I dont know if it was posted or not, I wasn't going to go thru ea and every post.
But I agree with you on the LTCH and it's just another scam of the gov'ts.
But you taking your handguns to the range without the permits as required by the gov't is in itself breaking the law.
Unless you're bonded by the federal gov't to carry, that supersedes
Indiana laws.

Maybe I'm wrong and they changed this law, I haven't followed or noticed any changes for better over a decade since I got my pink slip, actually it's been 19 yrs ago, now that I think about it. Decade ago I went lifetime, I think.
If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me so that I'm more informed.

Nope, July 1st the laws changed. You can transport a handgun without an LTCH as long as it is unloaded, in a case, and not readily available.

On another note I spoke to a couple of gun owners and shooters that I work with. This is what we came up with.

Seeing an LTCH means nothing. It may be for peace of mind to the seller, but where's the buyers peace of mind? The seller could easily report that gun stolen after the transaction and the buyer would have no proof that he actually bought it legally. (Has actually happened to one of my co-workers brothers) Felons who had a lifetime LTCH can still have a copy of it and easily show it to the seller.

And since when do people need an License to Carry a HANDGUN to transport a long gun? IMO Dross's statement of:

Personally, I see no need to be an auxiliary policeman and help the state with their enforcement duties. My duty as a citizen according to the law is to not KNOWINGLY sell to a person not legal to buy it.

"Is it legal for you to buy a firearm?" I ask. My duty is complete. In fact, I've gone above and beyond my duty.

Says it all. I understand you are selling to a stranger who could potentially be a felon or incapable of owning a gun, but in all honesty all you have to do is ask. If they say they can legally own it then you have done your duty. Who's to say that little pink piece of paper is even valid?

If you want peace of mind, make up a bill of sale for both parties involved. If you get a bad vibe from the buyer, call it off. Don't diminish the 2nd Ammendment by asking to see an LTCH for a .22 long rifle.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I can print up on the pink paper sitting next to my printer an LTCH in five minutes if I wanted too.