Indiana churches set up security teams after law changes to allow guns in church

[Geoman]

We tried to get this going at our congregation. Several deacons didn't believe in carrying guns. I thought, " Armed killers sure believe in
guns." We still have a few who carry concealed. We just aren't organized about it.

 

[Doug]

If a person carries a firearm in a church which has a "no firearms" policy and is discovered with it, can he be prosecuted under current law?
My understanding has been that "no gun" policies do not carry the force of law and prosecution will not occur if you leave when instructed to do so.

 

[mrortega]

If a person carries a firearm in a church which has a "no firearms" policy and is discovered with it, can he be prosecuted under current law?
My understanding has been that "no gun" policies do not carry the force of law and prosecution will not occur if you leave when instructed to do so.

Your can't be prosecuted just for carrying even when it's posted (in a private institution or building.) BUT, if you don't leave when asked you can be arrested for trespass.

 

[87iroc]

My pastor has no problems with guns in church. Some of our members do, however...but what they don't know won't hurt them...and as a very conservative congregation, they're in the minority I believe.

I was approached today by a member and said his daughter asked him if he still carried. He had told her no. She told him he needed to start again. He mentioned it to me. I told him I had one on my hip and suggested if he was going to to get updated on training. I am out of date and need to get on it in '20. He approached me as I am head of our 'security' team.

How does one go about approaching developing a team of willing participants to organize training and such w/o broadcasting what we're doing to send other members tilt. Its a delicate balance in a church struggling for members.

 

[bwframe]

Another discussion going on over here, if by chance you aren't following...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...h-security-everyone-expert-3.html#post8143282

 

[ditcherman]

My pastor has no problems with guns in church. Some of our members do, however...but what they don't know won't hurt them...and as a very conservative congregation, they're in the minority I believe.

I was approached today by a member and said his daughter asked him if he still carried. He had told her no. She told him he needed to start again. He mentioned it to me. I told him I had one on my hip and suggested if he was going to to get updated on training. I am out of date and need to get on it in '20. He approached me as I am head of our 'security' team.

How does one go about approaching developing a team of willing participants to organize training and such w/o broadcasting what we're doing to send other members tilt. Its a delicate balance in a church struggling for members.

This is a great question and one I’ve thought could have its own thread, given the interest in the church shooting subject, as the other threads have some fairly diverse subjects going on. A thread not so much about armchair qb or analysis but help from people that have done/are doing church security as laymen or volunteers to specifically develop that team.
Of course, there are many trainers out there who specialize in this and can add wisdom. We are working through finding one and coordinating a meeting with interested parties.
I also know of a state trooper who speaks at many types of organizations in a general sense about safety, not firearm related but how to react as a crowd, unarmed, like you might find in a school. We will probably have him in to talk to a broad audience and have a trainer specifically for the security team. Keep in mind, it’s much more likely you’ll need to perform cpr or find a lost child or help an elderly person who has fallen than to draw your gun. We are putting all that under the ‘security’ blanket.
To answer your question specifically, I can think that to take the training off site to begin with if your worried about the rumor mill would be beneficial. Get your teams act together first and then at service nothing has to be noticeably different. As time goes on if questions come up from antis you can honestly say you’ve been doing the security thing for some time.
Ive been worried about the same thing (others opinions) and as time goes on people seem to be more and more ok with it.

 

[Coach]

My pastor has no problems with guns in church. Some of our members do, however...but what they don't know won't hurt them...and as a very conservative congregation, they're in the minority I believe.

I was approached today by a member and said his daughter asked him if he still carried. He had told her no. She told him he needed to start again. He mentioned it to me. I told him I had one on my hip and suggested if he was going to to get updated on training. I am out of date and need to get on it in '20. He approached me as I am head of our 'security' team.

How does one go about approaching developing a team of willing participants to organize training and such w/o broadcasting what we're doing to send other members tilt. Its a delicate balance in a church struggling for members.

Like minded individuals can ask around by word of mouth. Then start a team and training together. I was once part of team that had existed a year or two and then we got a new preacher and church leadership team. They asked the elders what should be done about active shooters. They were then informed that those bases were covered. We had to have a meeting and get everyone on the same page. Several considered it a victory that we were organized and had someone assigned to over watch on each Sunday and the new pastors did not know.

 

[jedi]

If a person carries a firearm in a church which has a "no firearms" policy and is discovered with it, can he be prosecuted under current law?
My understanding has been that "no gun" policies do not carry the force of law and prosecution will not occur if you leave when instructed to do so.

Depends on how the sign is worded.

Guy Redford, Ingo member, had a long post here last year about the specific wording of the signs and how it's a gray area as no court case is yet avaliable

99% of no firearm signs are vague and you won't be breaking the law. Trespassing as others have stated is a different t issue.

 

[jedi]

Here is the law you were looking for. II missed adding a small part that allows it in church on school property.

Sec. 1. (a) This chapter does not apply to the following:

(6) A person who:

(A) may legally possess a firearm; and

(B) possesses a firearm on school property in connection with or while:

(i) attending a worship service or religious ceremony conducted at a house of worship located on the
school property; or

(ii) carrying out the person's official duties at a house of worship located on the school property, if the
person is employed by or a volunteer at the house of worship.

This subdivision does not affect the right of a property owner to prohibit, in whole or in part, the possession of a firearm on a property where a school or house of worship is located. SEC.4; P.L.107-2019, SEC.11.

IC 35-47-9-2 Possession of Firearms on School Property or a School Bus; Defense to a Prosecution;
Possession of Firearms in a Motor Vehicle Parked in a School Parking Lot

Sec. 2. (a) A person may not be charged with an offense under this subsection if the person may be charged with an offense described in subsection (c). A person who knowingly or intentionally possesses a firearm:

(1) in or on school property; or

(2) on a school bus; commits a Level 6 felony.

(b) It is a defense to a prosecution under subsection (a) that:

(1) the person is permitted to legally possess the firearm; and

(2) the firearm is:

(A) locked in the trunk of the person's motor vehicle;

(B) kept in the glove compartment of the person's locked motor vehicle; or

(C) stored out of plain sight in the person's locked motor vehicle.

(c) A person who is permitted to legally possess a firearm and who knowingly, intentionally, or recklessly leaves the firearm in plain view in a motor vehicle that is parked in a school parking lot commits a Class A misdemeanor. P.L.109-2015, SEC.54.

I like this law change but it's still a bit gray.
Church service is from 1 to 2pm.
You arrive at the church/school parking lot at 12:45pm.
While in your vehicle you are legally ok to carry your sidearm per the parking lot laws.

Now at 12:46pm you walk out of your vehicle, cross the parking lot and enter the church. All of the property is school property and church services has yet to start so you are technically NOT attending a church service yet

What if the police see you walking across the parking lot and see your sidearm. Are you breaking the law, school gfz at this moment in time?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I like this law change but it's still a bit gray.
Church service is from 1 to 2pm.
You arrive at the church/school parking lot at 12:45pm.
While in your vehicle you are legally ok to carry your sidearm per the parking lot laws.

Now at 12:46pm you walk out of your vehicle, cross the parking lot and enter the church. All of the property is school property and church services has yet to start so you are technically NOT attending a church service yet

What if the police see you walking across the parking lot and see your sidearm. Are you breaking the law, school gfz at this moment in time?

Not only that... But what if your church rents space at a local school to do some sort of church service there. Shouldn’t the law apply there as well? The language seems to imply that you’re on school property that has a “house of worship” on it, even though it uses the term “school property”. I think it’s safe to say that this bill was aimed at churches that also had school and day care facilities but if your church is renting space for a service, too bad. This should be tweaked.

 

[henry0reilly]

What if the police see you walking across the parking lot and see your sidearm. Are you breaking the law, school gfz at this moment in time?

You're gonna have to give the police the benefit of the doubt here and have faith that they will follow the spirit of the law. If they don't there's always the option of a jury trial.

 

[HoughMade]

If a person carries a firearm in a church which has a "no firearms" policy and is discovered with it, can he be prosecuted under current law?
My understanding has been that "no gun" policies do not carry the force of law and prosecution will not occur if you leave when instructed to do so.

Probably not, but maybe.

This is not as simple as "signs don't have the force of law." There is more to it than that in Indiana.

...and don't make the law say things it doesn't. Are you there to attend a church service? Also, with a LTCH the federal GFSZ Act is inapplicable.

 

[red_zr24x4]

This is a great question and one I’ve thought could have its own thread, given the interest in the church shooting subject, as the other threads have some fairly diverse subjects going on. A thread not so much about armchair qb or analysis but help from people that have done/are doing church security as laymen or volunteers to specifically develop that team.
Of course, there are many trainers out there who specialize in this and can add wisdom. We are working through finding one and coordinating a meeting with interested parties.
I also know of a state trooper who speaks at many types of organizations in a general sense about safety, not firearm related but how to react as a crowd, unarmed, like you might find in a school. We will probably have him in to talk to a broad audience and have a trainer specifically for the security team. Keep in mind, it’s much more likely you’ll need to perform cpr or find a lost child or help an elderly person who has fallen than to draw your gun. We are putting all that under the ‘security’ blanket.
To answer your question specifically, I can think that to take the training off site to begin with if your worried about the rumor mill would be beneficial. Get your teams act together first and then at service nothing has to be noticeably different. As time goes on if questions come up from antis you can honestly say you’ve been doing the security thing for some time.
Ive been worried about the same thing (others opinions) and as time goes on people seem to be more and more ok with it.

Depending on how far south you are, check out HST, Hoosier State Training.
Its run by a State police officer who does training for them. He lives up by Bremen.
I think this is who our church has decided to get training from

 

[Amishman44]

I'd feel a lot more charitable towards the church if they only show me their cancelled property insurance policy, and the lack of locks on the doors/windows. After all, God will take care of the rest.

We're actually working in conjunction with our church's insurance company to implement a Safety & Security program...including the locking of all doors (except the main entrances) & windows, installing 3M products on all windows against shattering (wind damage, physical attack, etc.), installing cameras and procuring radios to aid with onsite LE and volunteers, obtaining training, etc.

In Nehemiah 4:16-17, while rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem and while facing known and valid threats, Nehemiah had them do the following:
"From that day on, half of my men did the work, while the other half were equipped with spears, shields, bows and armor.
The officers posted themselves behind all the people of Judah who were building the wall.
Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other."

The 'work-must-go-on' does not mean not taking the time in preparing to defend one's self in the process!

 

[jedi]

You're gonna have to give the police the benefit of the doubt here and have faith that they will follow the spirit of the law. If they don't there's always the option of a jury trial.

The police following the law is in the same boat as Disney not messing up Star Wars.

 

[Jeepster48439]

Not only that... But what if your church rents space at a local school to do some sort of church service there. Shouldn’t the law apply there as well? The language seems to imply that you’re on school property that has a “house of worship” on it, even though it uses the term “school property”. I think it’s safe to say that this bill was aimed at churches that also had school and day care facilities but if your church is renting space for a service, too bad. This should be tweaked.

How about the scenario where the bulk of the parking is located such that you need to walk through the school portion of the building to get to/from the worship? Or the fellowship space is in the school cafeteria? Do I have to forgo my coffee and donuts?

Not sure I want to be the test case.

 

[Ingomike]

We're actually working in conjunction with our church's insurance company to implement a Safety & Security program...including the locking of all doors (except the main entrances) & windows, installing 3M products on all windows against shattering (wind damage, physical attack, etc.), installing cameras and procuring radios to aid with onsite LE and volunteers, obtaining training, etc.

In Nehemiah 4:16-17, while rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem and while facing known and valid threats, Nehemiah had them do the following:
"From that day on, half of my men did the work, while the other half were equipped with spears, shields, bows and armor.
The officers posted themselves behind all the people of Judah who were building the wall.
Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other."

The 'work-must-go-on' does not mean not taking the time in preparing to defend one's self in the process!

Sometimes hard to tell on the internet but the comment you quoted was sarcasm to pastors saying God will protect and continuing to be sitting ducks...

 

[schmart]

Sometimes hard to tell on the internet but the comment you quoted was sarcasm to pastors saying God will protect and continuing to be sitting ducks...

I didn't note any sarcasm at all, but rather a bible based counter point suggesting being armed is proper that can be made to those pastors wishing for pacifism.
--Rick

 

[Ingomike]

I didn't note any sarcasm at all, but rather a bible based counter point suggesting being armed is proper that can be made to those pastors wishing for pacifism.
--Rick

Sounds like a good plan...

 

[ghuns]

When I was a kid, people recruited "ringers" for their church softball team.

In the last year I've had two phone calls from friends trying to recruit me to join their church's security team.

I turned them both down. Unlike the softball team, the security team would require me to actually, you know, go to church.