Indiana Constitutional Carry 2017

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm guessing there's quite a few folks that think the same way since there was obviously so little pressure brought that neither a republican speaker or republican committee chair felt compelled to at least give this a hearing in committee.

That, combined with the knowledge that people who really care about this aren't going to vote for someone else even if they don't allow this to go through. There's no real political need and they can spend their energy and capital elsewhere.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That, combined with the knowledge that people who really care about this aren't going to vote for someone else even if they don't allow this to go through. There's no real political need and they can spend their energy and capital elsewhere.

Plus, the benefit of having a future issue to bring up that will bring "their base" back around, when the need arises. I wonder if there's a thought at that level that to keep some of these things in your back pocket for a time, say, when you're in the minority. When you need something to campaign on, to get voters excited about putting back in the majority, you whip this one back out and promise, 'if only you'll put us back in control, we'll get this badly needed piece of legislation passed'.

 

[bw8755]

There'll be blood in the streets! Like the wild Wild West!

"There'll be blood in the streets! Like Chicago!"

FTFY

 

[KellyinAvon]

I just sent a sortie downrange to my rep. Copy/paste/changed the name to Bosma and launched one his way too. I think I'll send a few more...

 

[chipbennett]

Jim Lucas posted this to Facebook (emphasis added):

https://www.facebook.com/jim.lucas.52/posts/1510510775630864

Due to the INCREDIBLE amount of misinformation and deceit I have been seeing on my upcoming "Constitutional Carry" bill, I just submitted this to the Indy Star,Seymour Tribune and Columbus Republic. Hopefully, they'll print it unedited!


"Due to the unbelievable amount of misunderstanding and misinformation being spread about my upcoming “Constitutional Carry” legislation, I feel it necessary to spell out the actual facts.

Indiana’s handgun licensing is shall issue and requires no training, with an option for a one-time purchase of a lifetime license. To receive this License To Carry Handgun (LTCH), a person must be fingerprinted, fill out forms, pay a fee and wait several weeks to months to receive their LTCH. As long as a person is not prohibited from having a firearm, i.e. – a convicted felon, domestic batterer, etc., they will receive their LTCH. This means that the state is fundamentally forcing innocent people to jump through unnecessary hoops, pay the state a substantial fee and wait several weeks to prove their innocence and receive permission to exercise a Constitutionally protected right.

This is wrong.

My bill will simply make it optional for innocent, non-prohibited people, who were going to get their LTCH anyway, to bypass the bureaucracy and lawfully carry a firearm in Indiana. To deal with reciprocity with other states, it is crafted to keep our current licensing system; shall issue, no training requirement and lifetime option, in place as an option for those that still wish to maintain a license for reciprocity. People that are prohibited from carrying a firearm and currently would not receive their LTCH will still be prohibited from carrying a firearm and will still be committing a major felony if they do so.

It’s that simple.

One of the myths is that this bill will endanger the lives of police officers. This is false, as one does not need a LTCH to purchase a handgun in Indiana and there is no way to “track” a firearm with our LTCH system. A check on possession for a LTCH only tells the officer that that individual went through the bureaucratic process of getting a license and not what is in their hearts or what their intentions are. Many mass shooters have passed background checks and these processes only prove the danger and infallibility of believing a system of paperwork will stop evil.

Marion County Prosecutor Terry Curry has relayed probably the most egregious misinformation about this bill. Gun laws only endanger those that follow laws and these innocent people are made easy, defenseless victims for those that don’t follow laws. How many of the gun homicides committed in Mr. Curry’s jurisdiction are committed by people that follow the law and actually have a LTCH?

As a citizen, I wonder why Mr. Curry’s office pleads down or dismisses over half of the gun crimes committed in his jurisdiction and as a legislator, I am curious why he does not use more of the tools the Indiana General Assembly has provided him with to deal with gun crimes. We have a multitude of already existing laws that make gun crimes a serious felony and have recently passed a law that allows for an additional 5-20 years sentencing enhancement to be applied for certain gun crimes. But, how often do we read about people being arrested in these situations that have multiple prior felony convictions? As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of those arrested for gun homicides in Marion County have a high average of multiple prior felony convictions, proving that gun crime is nothing more than a revolving door of repeat offenders that should have been behind bars.

I believe we should focus on keeping the bad guys behind bars instead of criminalizing and infringing the rights of innocent people."


Jim Lucas
State Representative
District 69

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Nice, sounds like it's at the top of their minds with regards to the bill. Glad to see that.

 

[Trigger Time]

Awesome!

 

[rugertoter]

I love the remarks from the antis that this would allow criminals to carry without a license. DUH, they already do now!

LOL! Funny how that works huh?

 

[JS1911]

Found this on the Indianapolis subreddit.

Looks like a drooling, leftist retard (but I repeat myself) has swallowed the fake news wholesale.

 

[chipbennett]

Nice, sounds like it's at the top of their minds with regards to the bill. Glad to see that.

I remember the 2015 version of the bill. It originally didn't have a provision to retain the LTCH for reciprocity purposes. I emailed Jim Lucas about it, and he actually called me to discuss it. I believe others expressed the same concern as well, because shortly thereafter, the bill was modified to include a provision to retain the LTCH, on an optional basis, for reciprocity. It remained part of the 2016 version, and will again be part of the 2017 version.

 

[fjw2]

I contacted my rep as soon as I read about it a few days ago. My slant on it involves anticipating a scenario in that I would need to hand off my BUG to my wife if confronted by multiple attackers while out in public. This could be while in our vehicle or walking about somewhere. She knows how to handle firearms but does not have a LTCH. I am not about to tell what she should or shouldn't do. I just don't want her to face any charges for not being licensed as a result of the aforementioned scenario.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I am obviously in favor of Constitutional carry.

In addition, fjw2, I see your post, and while I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, nor is this legal advice, two lines of the IC come to mind:

IC 35-41-3-1 Legal authority
Sec. 1. A person is justified in engaging in conduct otherwise
prohibited if he has legal authority to do so.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
...
(c) A person is justified in using reasonable force against any
other person to protect the person or a third person from what the
person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force.

In the scenario you outlined, she would be justified by having legal authority to defend her life and yours, as I read it. Both a knife and a gun are considered "deadly force" if employed offensively or defensively, even if all you do is shoot someone in their pinky toe. No one would question the legality of her either taking your knife or drawing her own (though if she's not trained with it, most would justifiably question the wisdom of doing so)

If I'm in error, I hope someone knowledgeable will correct my misconceptions.

(ETA: I was going to embed a clip (re: pinky toe) from Harlem Nights with Eddie Murphy and Della Reese... Alas, language forbids. Feel free to look it up for yourself.)

Blessings,
Bill

I contacted my rep as soon as I read about it a few days ago. My slant on it involves anticipating a scenario in that I would need to hand off my BUG to my wife if confronted by multiple attackers while out in public. This could be while in our vehicle or walking about somewhere. She knows how to handle firearms but does not have a LTCH. I am not about to tell what she should or shouldn't do. I just don't want her to face any charges for not being licensed as a result of the aforementioned scenario.

 

[fjw2]

I am obviously in favor of Constitutional carry.

In addition, fjw2, I see your post, and while I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, nor is this legal advice, two lines of the IC come to mind:

IC 35-41-3-1 Legal authority
Sec. 1. A person is justified in engaging in conduct otherwise
prohibited if he has legal authority to do so.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
...
(c) A person is justified in using reasonable force against any
other person to protect the person or a third person from what the
person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force.

In the scenario you outlined, she would be justified by having legal authority to defend her life and yours, as I read it. Both a knife and a gun are considered "deadly force" if employed offensively or defensively, even if all you do is shoot someone in their pinky toe. No one would question the legality of her either taking your knife or drawing her own (though if she's not trained with it, most would justifiably question the wisdom of doing so)

If I'm in error, I hope someone knowledgeable will correct my misconceptions.

(ETA: I was going to embed a clip (re: pinky toe) from Harlem Nights with Eddie Murphy and Della Reese... Alas, language forbids. Feel free to look it up for yourself.)

Blessings,
Bill

Thank you for your consideration. I have given that situation a great deal of thought. I hope you are correct. It would be a most dire situation to be sure and legal consequences would not be foremost in my OODA loop, but I still think about it. My family is my greatest concern.

 

[Trigger Time]

I am against mandatory training however the more gun owners I meet I am horrified at the number of stupid gun owners who need it and I hope they get some. But I will take Darwin over big govt and rights violation any day so I'll never support mandatory training. That's why I hope Mr Lucas puts in the tax credit option or keeps it in if it's in again this year.

But i also wish theyd give a credit so that gun owners would learn basic common sense when it comes to the gun laws and basic common freaking sense. I understand when you don't know something then you can have concerns that seem dumb to others, but please take the god damned time to at least read a bill or understand **** before you comment on it and look like a ****ing fool.
This is a comment in general to comments I've read various places online. People
jist have no clue. They carry guns but don't even understand the legal ramifications in their favor or against them in some cases.
I wish they'd offer a tax credit for people to learn basic govt.
i wish they made our kids learn the important laws and history of America in school. Because they are failing miserably.
My daughter goes to a decent public school and it gets top marks. Well now I'm wondering if it's all BS. She's in 4th grade and during a conversation the other day I found out they haven't even taught them who Christopher Columbus is yet!!!! What the hell?!
but they sure as **** have taught them about MLK and fed them plenty of propaganda on the matter I might add.
i pride myself in teaching my children what I can especially about govt and history. I hadn't hit Columbus yet but damn I sure as hell have now and I'm starting all over with the basics to make sure my kids don't miss anything. These schools .... what the **** ARE they teaching the kids? How to be good little subjects?
its no surprise why people even in the gun community even as seen here on ingo are willing to just give up their rights. It starts small, maybe consenting to a search or a field sobriety test, or just opening their damn mouth. And before you know it they are ok with handing over their loaded guns to a LEO that sometimes probably has less training with a gun than they do or about the same.
These idiots might not care about their own rights but stop ****ing it up for the rest of us.
when you tell a soldier thank you for your service, if you do, or you are greatful and celebrate the 4th and go all out because you love freedom. Well do you really? Or are you really?
because if you were or are I think you might wanna do alittle but of research as to what you are just pissing away by just trying to "be friendly" or helping a guy "just doing their job". With the freedoms we have been blessed with by our creator and guaranteed by our form of govt, comes
GREAT RESPONSIBILITY! So start taking it seriously and buy and read some books on the subject before you go blow several hundred dollars on some fireworks. Because if you do the. I guarentee every celebration after you become AWAKE will be soooooooo much sweeter!
and the National Anthem at your sports games get much better too!

 

[Mgderf]

I am against mandatory training however the more gun owners I meet I am horrified at the number of stupid gun owners who need it and I hope they get some. But I will take Darwin over big govt and rights violation any day so I'll never support mandatory training. That's why I hope Mr Lucas puts in the tax credit option or keeps it in if it's in again this year.

But i also wish theyd give a credit so that gun owners would learn basic common sense when it comes to the gun laws and basic common freaking sense. I understand when you don't know something then you can have concerns that seem dumb to others, but please take the god damned time to at least read a bill or understand **** before you comment on it and look like a ****ing fool.
This is a comment in general to comments I've read various places online. People
jist have no clue. They carry guns but don't even understand the legal ramifications in their favor or against them in some cases.
I wish they'd offer a tax credit for people to learn basic govt.
i wish they made our kids learn the important laws and history of America in school. Because they are failing miserably.
My daughter goes to a decent public school and it gets top marks. Well now I'm wondering if it's all BS. She's in 4th grade and during a conversation the other day I found out they haven't even taught them who Christopher Columbus is yet!!!! What the hell?!
but they sure as **** have taught them about MLK and fed them plenty of propaganda on the matter I might add.
i pride myself in teaching my children what I can especially about govt and history. I hadn't hit Columbus yet but damn I sure as hell have now and I'm starting all over with the basics to make sure my kids don't miss anything. These schools .... what the **** ARE they teaching the kids? How to be good little subjects?
its no surprise why people even in the gun community even as seen here on ingo are willing to just give up their rights. It starts small, maybe consenting to a search or a field sobriety test, or just opening their damn mouth. And before you know it they are ok with handing over their loaded guns to a LEO that sometimes probably has less training with a gun than they do or about the same.
These idiots might not care about their own rights but stop ****ing it up for the rest of us.
when you tell a soldier thank you for your service, if you do, or you are greatful and celebrate the 4th and go all out because you love freedom. Well do you really? Or are you really?
because if you were or are I think you might wanna do alittle but of research as to what you are just pissing away by just trying to "be friendly" or helping a guy "just doing their job". With the freedoms we have been blessed with by our creator and guaranteed by our form of govt, comes
GREAT RESPONSIBILITY! So start taking it seriously and buy and read some books on the subject before you go blow several hundred dollars on some fireworks. Because if you do the. I guarentee every celebration after you become AWAKE will be soooooooo much sweeter!
and the National Anthem at your sports games get much better too!

You need to try some decaf.

 

[Sonney]

Educate me on Constitutional carry. Would you still have to be check out or would you just be able to buy a gun and carry the weapon. I think a national carry license would be a lot better.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Educate me on Constitutional carry. Would you still have to be check out or would you just be able to buy a gun and carry the weapon. I think a national carry license would be a lot better.

Reciprocity doesn't have anything to do with the background checks...unless that gets added in. A national carry license would be bad. Think of how relatively easy it is to get a LTCH here versus how hard it is to get one in Washington DC or New York --- the "national license" requirements would be somewhere in between.

 

[chipbennett]

Educate me on Constitutional carry. Would you still have to be check out or would you just be able to buy a gun and carry the weapon. I think a national carry license would be a lot better.

"Constitutional carry" = no permission slip required. Buy gun. Carry gun. Get left alone.

I am opposed to a "national carry" license. All the "slippery slope" and "nose under the tent" arguments apply to the fed.gov getting into the business of issuing carry licenses.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Educate me on Constitutional carry. Would you still have to be check out or would you just be able to buy a gun and carry the weapon. I think a national carry license would be a lot better.

Good question, and thanks for being willing to admit you want more knowledge! The four "categories" a state can be in are "No Issue", "May Issue", "Shall Issue", and "Constitutional Carry". There are no more "No Issue" states. Illinois was the last to pass a law allowing their residents to pay for the privilege of carrying a gun. Some states still are "May Issue", meaning that they (as it's usually phrased) "have police discretion over the issue of a permit or license", which means that if the sheriff or Chief of Police or judge or whoever issues the permits doesn't like you or if you don't make a (purely voluntary!) big enough donation to their re-election campaign, you don't get a permit, or if you do, it allows you to carry between 3AM and 5AM, alternate Fridays, during winter months. In short, they are very limited in who they choose to allow to lawfully exercise their rights. (such things started off as restrictions so that the Italians or the Blacks or the whichever group was not favored could be officially controlled. I'm sure that never happens anymore for reasons like that. (apply purple as you see fit.))
The overwhelming majority of states are "Shall Issue", which means if you meet a set of objective criteria, and ask for a permit, you are issued one as soon as you pay for it. Those criteria vary, but usually include being over the age of majority, whether 18 or 21, not an abuser of alcohol or drugs however the law defines that, not a felon, not judged to be mentally ill, however the latter is defined in law. In essence, once you prove you're innocent of any wrongdoing, you're good to go.
Finally, "Constitutional Carry": There are 27 words and three commas in the Second Amendment. In short, if you can lawfully own it, you can lawfully carry it. Indiana is like this when it comes to long guns. No permit, license, or overarching oversight. Oddly enough, we don't have a whole lot of crime with long guns here. If you are guilty of some criminal activity, it must be proven before your ability to exercise your rights under the law can be restricted. This is in keeping with both the 2A and the 5A, which says that your rights to life, liberty, or property cannot be infringed without due process of law. "Innocent until proven guilty" and all that, rather than the reverse, "guilty until proven innocent".

This may be more info than you wanted or needed, but you won't be the only one reading. I hope I've covered the subject well enough to answer what questions arise, but if not, ask more or PM. I'll help how I can and refer to others where I can't.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[ATM]

"Constitutional carry" = no permission slip required. Buy gun. Carry gun. Get left alone.

I am opposed to a "national carry" license. All the "slippery slope" and "nose under the tent" arguments apply to the fed.gov getting into the business of issuing carry licenses.

Bingo. I'm a big fan of get left alone, especially regarding the practice of my rights.