Innovative Tactical Concetps-Richmond Indiana

[Bill of Rights]

Brian,

I read your post and came to the same conclusion that 465guy did. That said, I'm not going to judge based on that alone because "credentials" are just a paper saying that yes, you met X standards on X day. What counts is how it really works.

You mentioned several times that you've evaluated the other guys' systems and teaching and you teach what you teach because it works. We all know that training and practice are not the same thing as a real-life conflict with lives on the line. So, in light of that, how many times have you had to use what you know and what you teach (two separate answers) in a real, honest to goodness, fight for your life? I've not seen you mention that, and since you're saying how well your training works, I would think that a fight one person is not going to survive would be a valid measure.

Please understand that I am not challenging you so much as trying to gauge for myself what I might learn in one of your classes. As I said, credentials are just paper, but they do serve also as a benchmark; something known that we can use to compare classes.

I look forward to your replies.

Blessings,
B

 

[Brian@ITC]

Now, before I go on, “a lot”, “most”, “typical”, or “traditional” does NOT equal ALL. There are over 50,000 instructors in the United States, “most” of which are teaching similar things. That is, guncentric training.


465Guy, I have not yet presented credentials that are acceptable in your opinion to teach “firearms” training. It does not actually mean that I am not qualified to teach because WE teach self-defense using firearms integrated with unarmed combatives. So, who exactly should I go and train with to be able to teach it if what we teach is our own stuff? Who can prepare me to teach the stuff WE develop from OUR experience?

So, let me give all of you a better insight as to my training background although a lot of it has not been “official”.

As I believe that I stated in my previous posting, I have trained with a number of people who have trained with bigger name schools. In my martial arts experience you meet people from all types of backgrounds, including those in SWAT and other firearm instructors. I have a number of friends who are in SWAT in some of the larger cities that surround us and I trained with them privately. Not forgetting that some of our staff is on the Richmond SWAT Team and I have trained with them a number of times. I received training, just not a piece of paper stating that I trained with “so-and-so”. But, does that change the fact that I have had the training? Why mention the training if it isn’t “official”, right? Because, unless it is official, you can’t possibly learn anything—right? WRONG

In addition, there is a small training group that I am involved with (outside of ITC) that we all attend different schools to see what is being taught, and some of these people are on PD’s and SWAT Teams, and other “local” trainers. This should also explain the “lack of credentials”, and the “resources” that I refer to. Our training circle has been to TDI, Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, Gun Site, Black Water, and John Farnam, to name a few. I am confident that the people I am around are competent enough to bring the information back to the group as accurately as possible.

When I chose Tactical Response (TR) to train with, it was because I liked some of the things that I read about the school. Only to find out from experience, that it was “typical” (training focused on the use of the gun) firearms training that I have experienced with our circle of trainers who have come back from other schools and shared information. It is because of my experience with TR that I have chosen not to train with other schools for a while and get all of those impressive gun credentials people are so critical about seeing. Likewise, I haven’t really seen anything that has been brought back to the group that we at ITC feel was all that great for civilian purposes. Some things we can use, but not a lot. It is my experience with TR that encouraged ITC to continue down the path we are on which is reality based training for civilians.

Now, as of January, 2008, I am a certified instructor of Counter Force International who has been training military and law enforcement worldwide for nearly 26 years. Some of the things that we teach at Counter Force are: Basic and Advanced SWAT Team Training (Bus Assaults, Vehicle Assaults, Winding Stair Cases, Team Leader Courses, Active Shooter, Chemical Munitions Deployment, to name a few). Counter Force caters to LE and Military only, so many of you may not have heard of them.

I do not “promote” those credentials with Counter Force because it is not what is important in our training for civilians for the use of a pistol in a fight. But, since a lot of you are hung up on credentials, there you have my “tactical training” background. We were teaching the stuff in our Advanced Pistol Fighting course long before I became a certified Counter Force instructor. My instructorship with Counter Force has not changed one thing that we teach in our APF. So, with that in mind, again, I will say, what does this “new” information really change about our training? Nothing! However, maybe it will change your perspective and others perspective about my credentials although people should take a look at the credentials of our entire staff before making comments or counting us out as a good training resource. As people are guncentric, it is quite evident that people are gun credential centric and not FIGHT credential oriented. My 20+ years of martial arts experience should qualify me to teach people how to fight unarmed, with a knife, stick, or firearm. Now, in order to hopefully avoid another potential conflict with other postings, I am updating the website with my full background to the best of my ability.

TOGETHER, we have a well rounded group of people. It is because I am President and have the least “official” amount of training listed on my bio that people single me out and think that our entire team lacks the ability to teach anything good. Well, as I have just informed all of you, I have plenty of training and I do have a good idea of what most people are doing out there. Again, most of the training I have received does not apply to what we do in our Advanced Pistol Fighting course. Tim and I developed the material for the APF class from our martial arts experience and how we would use a gun in a realistic manner in a fight unlike what a lot of “firearms” schools are teaching.

The reason that I do not promote my Counter Force training is because I like to try to stand on my credentials as a martial artist and my practical training with firearms as a tool just like any other tool. Some people are not firearm credential focused because they understand the concepts that we teach from talking to us or visiting our website when they are looking for what is missing in most firearms training THEY have taken. Again, we get students from all walks of life and who have had prior experiences with “big names” and love what we do because we do fill the missing parts of self-defense training found in most “firearms” training. Not saying that training with big names or any other instructor is a bad thing!

Quite honestly, the only reason my training with Tactical Response is out there on the website is because people care about that training although it has nothing really to do with what we teach at ITC.

If Tim Davis was President of ITC or he was on the forums (he’s not because he doesn’t like computers), most of this stuff would not even be an issue and I would be an instructor under Tim, and that would be that. If you really look at it, my training is not much different then that of Aaron Little at Tactical Response. But I don’t see people giving him a bunch of crap. Personally, I like Aaron and I am not picking on him. It appears his firearms training took place under Tactical Response. As mine took place with other instructors on the side and SWAT Team members, and officially with Counter Force this past January.


Bill of Rights,

Fortunately I have not had to use any of my skills in a real life threatening situation. First rule is to avoid a confrontation all together through awareness—right? How do I KNOW it will work? Nothing is for sure and anyone who says something “will” work in a fight is lying. We NEVER say “This WILL work in our training”. We present things in a manner of throwing techniques out like a machine gun. Keep fighting until the threat is neutralized or you can escape, and fighting does not always mean with a gun. As other people have experienced through our training (mindset and tactics), our training makes more sense than what most are teaching because the gun is not your salvation.

Just because someone has experienced one or more life threatening situations and did something, does not mean that it was the best thing to do, or that it will work in another situation that appears to be “similar”. Again, it is our training experiences that we conduct realistic training. Do not forget that Tim has 17 years on the Police Department and he has seen a lot in his time and WE develop our tactics from some of his experiences. He has an extensive martial arts background and uses that experience more so than “police academy” training when it comes to surviving on the streets. Keep in mind that law enforcement encounters are normally different from civilian confrontations.

The hard core reality of it is, that you can do everything “right” in a fight and die, and do everything wrong and “live”. So, the question I think is, those who have had training and survived their confrontation, did they do things wrong or right and live. And, will we ever know?


Everything will work under the “right” conditions. But, the question is, what works in “most” confrontations? The truth is, there is a lack of civilian statistics that support any type of training will or will not work. We place our lives on the training that we provide. That is how confident I am about what we teach will provide people with the best potential for surviving a confrontation. Not forgetting, that all of the official training in the world is not enough. One must put in the dirt time even when having received the “best” training.

How many people have been in a confrontation who have been “trained” but not practiced often or at all and died because they were not confident enough to attempt to do something? So, what did that training really do for them?

So, have I answered your questions? There are no absolutes in life other than living and dieing. Let me ask you this, how many highly trained soldiers have died in combat? Obviously their training did not save them. So, I hope you see what I am saying. Regardless of how good the training is, no one can promise a positive outcome.

____________________
Brian K. LaMaster - Innovative Tactical Concepts

 

[Scutter01]

I like to try to stand on my credentials as a martial artist

I have no stake in this conversation, but I'd be interested in hearing who you've trained with. Perhaps we know some of the same people.

 

[rhino]

After reading the recent messages in this topic, my opinion (as quoted below from 10-Apr-08) remains unchanged.

Fortunately the market is big enough that consumers have plenty of choices and can select vendors based on whatever criteria that suits them.

They've been around a while.

Many people here in Indiana have participated in multiple classes with other instructors and schools and thus have a basis for making informed decisions on such things. Note that most don't have much to say about them.

Infer from that what you wish.

After reading messages the front man has posted on GlockTalk and looking at their web site, I have no interest in their products.

Again, infer from that what you will.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Bill of Rights,

Fortunately I have not had to use any of my skills in a real life threatening situation. First rule is to avoid a confrontation all together through awareness—right? How do I KNOW it will work? Nothing is for sure and anyone who says something “will” work in a fight is lying. We NEVER say “This WILL work in our training”. We present things in a manner of throwing techniques out like a machine gun. Keep fighting until the threat is neutralized or you can escape, and fighting does not always mean with a gun. As other people have experienced through our training (mindset and tactics), our training makes more sense than what most are teaching because the gun is not your salvation.

Just because someone has experienced one or more life threatening situations and did something, does not mean that it was the best thing to do, or that it will work in another situation that appears to be “similar”. Again, it is our training experiences that we conduct realistic training. Do not forget that Tim has 17 years on the Police Department and he has seen a lot in his time and WE develop our tactics from some of his experiences. He has an extensive martial arts background and uses that experience more so than “police academy” training when it comes to surviving on the streets. Keep in mind that law enforcement encounters are normally different from civilian confrontations.

The hard core reality of it is, that you can do everything “right” in a fight and die, and do everything wrong and “live”. So, the question I think is, those who have had training and survived their confrontation, did they do things wrong or right and live. And, will we ever know?


Everything will work under the “right” conditions. But, the question is, what works in “most” confrontations? The truth is, there is a lack of civilian statistics that support any type of training will or will not work. We place our lives on the training that we provide. That is how confident I am about what we teach will provide people with the best potential for surviving a confrontation. Not forgetting, that all of the official training in the world is not enough. One must put in the dirt time even when having received the “best” training.

How many people have been in a confrontation who have been “trained” but not practiced often or at all and died because they were not confident enough to attempt to do something? So, what did that training really do for them?

So, have I answered your questions? There are no absolutes in life other than living and dieing. Let me ask you this, how many highly trained soldiers have died in combat? Obviously their training did not save them. So, I hope you see what I am saying. Regardless of how good the training is, no one can promise a positive outcome.

Have you answered my questions? Yes, I think you have, but I don't think you did so in the way you would have liked. You said that you never teach "This will work" in your training, and indeed, you never once used that particular phrase, but you say that you teach people how to fight; the connotation is that you're teaching them how to fight and survive the fight, ergo, "what works".
I can get a bunch of money from a bunch of people, say that I have a school, and throw out a bunch of possible reactions "like a machine gun" my students could use and leave myself the perfect "out" from any challenge: "Hey, I never once said it would work!" This to me seems disingenuous. Perhaps I've misinterpreted and if so and I've mischaracterized you, please accept my apologies. Honesty is important to me, and as such, I thought it important to answer you and tell you what I honestly think, since you asked.

If your methods do in fact work, whether you claim they do or not, I wish you good fortune and success in your business and your life. I will not rule out taking one of your classes at some future date- I can learn SOMEthing from just about everyone-and I do.

Blessings,
B

PS: One side note: You mentioned military and LE training as opposed to "civilian" training. LEOs are "civilians" also, so you may wish to reword that phrasing. Just a thought.

 

[hkhoosier]

I hope I'm never involved in an advanced pistol fight. Basic pistol fights are probably dangerous enough as it is.

 

[465guy]

I took Karate classes back in jr high school. Maybe I will start a firearms training business.

 

[sjstill]

I hope I'm never involved in an advanced pistol fight. Basic pistol fights are probably dangerous enough as it is.

Will a basic carbine class cancel out advanced pistol?

IIRC, Louis Awerbuck has posed that question before - what is an advanced gunfight?

 

[Scutter01]

IIRC, Louis Awerbuck has posed that question before - what is an advanced gunfight?

One where you have to insert a fresh mag?

 

[rhino]

Years from now, when we're still laughing about this, I want everyone to remember I was not the meanie in this topic.

 

[Scutter01]

Years from now, when we're still laughing about this, I want everyone to remember I was not the meanie in this topic.

Duly noted.

 

[TomN]

I'm not mean either. I love everyone!

 

[Cwood]

I'm not mean either. I love everyone!

Bring out the Holy Hand Grenade..... Tom is tryin to love on everyone

 

[indyninja]

Let's get some first hand accounts of the training. Maybe it is incredible stuff. Anyone actually trained with this oufit?

 

[abnk]

Let's get some first hand accounts of the training. Maybe it is incredible stuff. Anyone actually trained with this oufit?

Not I, but a recent article in S.W.A.T. Magazine made them sound very good.

 

[cordex]

Let's get some first hand accounts of the training. Maybe it is incredible stuff. Anyone actually trained with this oufit?

Early in the thread he offered sjstill a free class. Maybe if sjstill isn't able to go, Brian would extend the offer to someone else who can.

 

[sjstill]

Yeah, I have neither the time or inclination.

I thought the article in SWAT read more like a press release than a class review, but what do I know.

 

[Brian@ITC]

The article was written by a student who has attended a number of classes by some of the bigger names and asked if he could do an article on the course and submit it. Since it is his place to tell you what trainers he has trained with, I will not publish that information without his permission. But, he lives in Ohio, and he is a training nut.

In fact, he is coming back this weekend for another dose of Advanced Pistol Fighting. Gerard also writes for a number of gun related magazines. Overall, we were pleased with the article because we felt that it described the course pretty well in the amount of space he was alloted.

___________________
Brian K. LaMaster - Innovative Tactical Concepts

 

[Tinman]

I think I’ve got to roll with the no thanks group on this crew.

Brian,
I’ve read as much of your responses as I could stomach. In the future, if you’re going to quote someone else’s work, at least do them the courtesy of crediting them. I counted at least 4 different instructors, most of whom I have personally trained with, that you quoted verbatim without so much as a mention of their work.

For some reason, this industry seems to be rife with folks who want to use someone else’s material to make a buck. When I teach, sure I use material that was taught to me. I always reference the source. Not to name drop, but to let people know that these were things others developed. I guess just call it professional ethics.


I also most strongly disagree with your assertion that if someone who took the course teaches it to you, why should you go pay the big bucks and take the course. I consider that most dishonest. If a friend takes a class and likes something, he wants to show to me, great. If I like it I pony up and hit the class, for two reasons. First, to learn from the source. There may be nuances of the technique that my friend missed out on. I am always quick to let the instructor know (privately) that I am an instructor and would like to integrate the technique into what I already teach. Most instructors have been very gracious to spend a little extra time and make sure I’m squared away correctly before I run off and start teaching. Second, it’s a respect thing, pony up and buy the product yourself. I liken it to ripping off software, or music. This is these peoples living, if you’re going to use their stuff, at least do them the courtesy of buying the product yourself.

I’ll get off the soapbox now, guess I fall in the meany category on this one.

Tinman….

 

[TomN]

I’ll get off the soapbox now, guess I fall in the meany category on this one.

Tinman….

You sir are most vicious!