Interesting Convo with Guardsmen.

[griffin]

Thats a dirty F**king lie as a servicemember in a "real branch"...why dont you go to afghanistan before you talk trash about those who do serve especially when it doing so they especially infantrymen such as myself lay down our f**king lives for you...You best be thinking long and hard about the **** we do and what we give up before you say another word of disrespect...take off your tinfoil hat we're people just like you not mindless drones.

First of all, my son is a Marine Staff Sergeant (up for Gunny) who has been to the sandbox twice. Another has been through Marine OCS. My daughter-in-law is a Marine Sergeant. So I am not unfamiliar with the military. Now that that is out of the way...

I think you are wrong. History in this country has shown us otherwise. Not only that, but as I have said some have admitted that if they were ordered to, they would. They would just be obeying orders and it is not theirs to question.

As to the LEO part of the equation, they would go against US citizens as well. You may have a short memory but one older LEO here stated flat out that he knows the younger men in his department would have no problems disarming American citizens or going against them if told to.

We have a hard enough time trying to keep the LEOs from throwing us in jail now, and we aren't even breaking any laws. Do you know what the FBI has done to American citizens? And I'm not just talking about Ruby Ridge or Waco. I'm talking about lying in federal court.

You sound like a young, naive guy. I wish you were correct, but I do not believe you are.

Oh, in addition to what rambone posted, don't forget that there were more than one hundred dead and wounded, including children and babies, in 1932 when US troops fired on men, women, and children in Washington, D.C.

Yes, the military and law enforcement will do what they are told.

By the way, what's a "real branch" as you say?

 

[Kutnupe14]

First of all, my son is a Marine Staff Sergeant (up for Gunny) who has been to the sandbox twice. Another has been through Marine OCS. My daughter-in-law is a Marine Sergeant. So I am not unfamiliar with the military. Now that that is out of the way...

I think you are wrong. History in this country has shown us otherwise. Not only that, but as I have said some have admitted that if they were ordered to, they would. They would just be obeying orders and it is not theirs to question.

As to the LEO part of the equation, they would go against US citizens as well. You may have a short memory but one older LEO here stated flat out that he knows the younger men in his department would have no problems disarming American citizens or going against them if told to.

We have a hard enough time trying to keep the LEOs from throwing us in jail now, and we aren't even breaking any laws.

You sound like a young, naive guy. I wish you were correct, but I do not believe you are.

Oh, in addition to what rambone posted, don't forget that there were more than one hundred dead and wounded, including children and babies, in 1932 when US troops fired on WWI vets and families.

Yes, the military and law enforcement will do what they are told.

By the way, what's a "real branch" as you say?

Duh, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Corps

 

[j706]

"Keep in mind these were both senior nco's and one of them stands a very good chance of becoming an officer".


Senior NCO's don't become officers. It sounds like you were probably talking to a couple of flunky's from non essential MOS's. They are there believe me. Probably been in for years with no accomplishments. Multiple Article 15's and other discipline problems but finally learned how to stay under the radar and just exist and wait for retirement.

 

[drillsgt]

Thats a dirty F**king lie as a servicemember in a "real branch" i know that myself and the Marines in my PLT wouldnt do a damn thing close to turning on civi's take of your tinfoil hat and get to know some servicemembers who joined for something other than free college and a paycheck i promise you i sure as hell dont do my job for the paycheck i sometimes get; and since i seriously doubt you have served why dont you go to afghanistan before you talk trash about those who do serve especially when it doing so they especially infantrymen such as myself lay down our f**king lives for you and millions of other people that we DONT know just to have the same people say we would turn on them in a heartbeat i know my best friend didnt die in Iraq to have people bad mouth myself and our beloved Corps. You best be thinking long and hard about the **** we do and what we give up before you say another word of disrespect. If this rant gets me in trouble for cursing or going off on you so be it im tiered of people who I serve and am sworn to protect to the point of giving up my life tell me **** like that. Good day and Semper f**king FI

Unfortunately the poster that was responsible for this rant may very well be correct. Of those I ask coming into basic now only a handful have ever even shot a real gun before and even many of the NCO's who are in their twenties and early thirties don't even own any firearms. It's probably the same with LEO's, we have an attachment here to the 2nd amendment and the shooting sports but many don't and to them collecting up guns would be no different than any other item if told to do it. The 2nd amendment is only a sentence or two in social studies books nowadays and doesn't get any play in the schools. The military itself is becoming antagonistic towards personally owned firearms with schemes always popping up to record your serial numbers or associating them with suicide etc. etc. Just calm down and continue the fight and educate those around you. I think it's sort of a moot argument but hopefully if it ever happens likeminded people like you, me, Kut, Denny, Frank etc are still around.

 

[Matthew_DM]

I know the guys in my old unit would turn around and drop their pants to such an order. I also know other military personnel that have gone on the record for saying they'd have no problem going door to door to disarm the American people. There are those that are more akin to mercenaries than soldiers.

But you can't make generalities like that. I can't believe people still believe in such stereotypes. Are there going to be some scumbags in the military and law enforcement? Oh yeah. Are there going to be a bunch of good guys too? Yep. Would it break 50/50? Probably not.

In any case, it'd be very bloody. It'd shake our country to the foundations.

 

[rockhopper46038]

In any case, it'd be very bloody. It'd shake our country to the foundations.

If it comes to this, our country will have been long dead.

 

[drillsgt]

"Keep in mind these were both senior nco's and one of them stands a very good chance of becoming an officer".


Senior NCO's don't become officers. It sounds like you were probably talking to a couple of flunky's from non essential MOS's. They are there believe me. Probably been in for years with no accomplishments. Multiple Article 15's and other discipline problems but finally learned how to stay under the radar and just exist and wait for retirement.

It's not unheard of, many NCO's either go Warrant or take a direct commission (quite common in the Reserves). You usually see this though in the E-6 to E-7 ranks more uncommon with the E-8's and i've never heard of it with the E-9's. It might depend on the OP's definition of senior NCO's.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

While the Air Guard is indeed part of the State militia first, there are significant differences in the way the Air Guard is manned and paid for as opposed to the Army Guard.

Typically, Air Guard and Reserve units have 50% full-time personnel manning - which is paid by Federal dollars - as opposed to the 3-5 full-time personnel per unit which are paid by federal dollars for an Army Guard or Reserve unit. Since that's the case, it's not surprising that the OP's acquaintances would be of the opinion that their chain-of-command doesn't extend through the State. And, in fact, for the Air Guard member serving in CENTCOM, his Chain-of-Command DOES bypass the State organization.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

"Keep in mind these were both senior nco's and one of them stands a very good chance of becoming an officer".


Senior NCO's don't become officers. It sounds like you were probably talking to a couple of flunky's from non essential MOS's. They are there believe me. Probably been in for years with no accomplishments. Multiple Article 15's and other discipline problems but finally learned how to stay under the radar and just exist and wait for retirement.

I have to disagree with your characterization of these Air Guard NCOs. E-8s in any branch of service don't get there by being screw-ups. They may not be outstanding NCOs (and I've known some First Sergeants and Sergeants Major who had major character flaws during my career), but -especially in the Air Force system - they don't get promoted without accomplishments and fairly spotless disciplinary records. There are probably other reasons beyond your speculation for their attitudes.

 

[thebishopp]

"Keep in mind these were both senior nco's and one of them stands a very good chance of becoming an officer".


Senior NCO's don't become officers. It sounds like you were probably talking to a couple of flunky's from non essential MOS's. They are there believe me. Probably been in for years with no accomplishments. Multiple Article 15's and other discipline problems but finally learned how to stay under the radar and just exist and wait for retirement.

I know both of them. One is a NBC/Disaster trainer and has served one tour in Iraq and may be headed to Afghanistan next year depending on if he gets accepted into whatever the air force / air guard version of OCS (if he gets accepted then he won't ship out). Right now his application is in and he is waiting approval. No disciplinary problems in fact has been promoted rather rapidly and seems well liked by his supervisors.

The other is his brother who has been in longer and has been active guard attached to centcom (if I spelled that right). No discipline problems either as far as I know.

Nice enough guys and one of them is a friend of mine (the one who has been overseas). We of course disagree on some things

 

[.45 Dave]

I personally found these two posts to be most interesting to me. I know a person who is on the Guard now and has fought in both Iraq and Afghanistan and was awarded the purple heart. He is a gun owner and would not under any circumstances obey such an order and would in fact fight against it.

I retired, from INARNG, 22 years, plus 4 in USMC, and I can ASSURE you, the State Guard, answers to the GOVERNOR..... When I was deployed, the Pres. ASKED the GOVERNOR, to deploy us... YES, while on AD, Guard members are paid under Title 10, Federal Money.... BUT, the State budget, comes from the Fed., anyway ..... NOT really much difference.... I am sure Jeremy, can tell you MORE ..... I Ret., 5 years ago, things COULD have changed.....

It would seem to me that wherever the order might rightfully come from, the perception from the people the OP asked is that they take orders from the Federal Government. If that is their conclusion then rightlful chain of command is moot.

As for the order to disarm citizens they'd have to take my guns too unfortunately they were lost in a boating accident and i would do my damnedest to prevent it nor would i carry out such a order. The majority or the Marine Corps owns guns privately they would not follow such an order as well. As i said before take off your tinfoil hat we're people just like you not mindless drones.

I appreciate your feelings. You cannot color every person in the military with the same broad brush. (see my opening statement). Each would have to decide if the order was lawful to be obeyed and what their actions would be. In any case, it would be a very bad day for America. Both civilian and military blood would run in the streets.

 

[thebishopp]

It's not unheard of, many NCO's either go Warrant or take a direct commission (quite common in the Reserves). You usually see this though in the E-6 to E-7 ranks more uncommon with the E-8's and i've never heard of it with the E-9's. It might depend on the OP's definition of senior NCO's.

While I believe "officially" it is the top 3 "E grades"...

I generally consider long time NCO's from E-7 and up who have been in nearly 15 or more years. When I was in the army they normally had a lot of influence on the soldiers under their command, especially the "new" ones.

Correction on my original rank post: The one who is trying to become an officer is an E-7.

 

[thebishopp]

While the Air Guard is indeed part of the State militia first, there are significant differences in the way the Air Guard is manned and paid for as opposed to the Army Guard.

Typically, Air Guard and Reserve units have 50% full-time personnel manning - which is paid by Federal dollars - as opposed to the 3-5 full-time personnel per unit which are paid by federal dollars for an Army Guard or Reserve unit. Since that's the case, it's not surprising that the OP's acquaintances would be of the opinion that their chain-of-command doesn't extend through the State. And, in fact, for the Air Guard member serving in CENTCOM, his Chain-of-Command DOES bypass the State organization.

That is interesting... I would have thought it would have been the same system.

As far as the CENTCOM attachment... I understand that he is under their chain of command but isn't he basically on "loan"? I guess my confusion is that I think of the "Guard" as being part of the "State" and the actual Air Force being federal.

 

[thebishopp]

I personally found these two posts to be most interesting to me. I know a person who is on the Guard now and has fought in both Iraq and Afghanistan and was awarded the purple heart. He is a gun owner and would not under any circumstances obey such an order and would in fact fight against it.



It would seem to me that wherever the order might rightfully come from, the perception from the people the OP asked is that they take orders from the Federal Government. If that is their conclusion then rightlful chain of command is moot.



I appreciate your feelings. You cannot color every person in the military with the same broad brush. (see my opening statement). Each would have to decide if the order was lawful to be obeyed and what their actions would be. In any case, it would be a very bad day for America. Both civilian and military blood would run in the streets.

This is what I am talking about.

Even the one who acknowledged that he thought they "technically" answered to the Governor believed they were under federal authority. I will say the one attached to CENTCOM (and the one who had been in the air guard longer - oh I forgot to mention he is a former marine) was much more adamant that he was "federalized" and added "it doesn't say guard on my id card".

 

[Expat]

We know that federal troops have fired on citizens before. We know about the 29 Palms survey revealing a continued willingness to fire on citizens.

 

[adam]

I had a long, drawn out response but it's a waste. They are idiots. If they feel that way I hope he doesn't get accepted to OCS or has some squared away NCO to put a boot up his ass 24/7/365. The last thing the military needs is another joke of an Officer.

 

[DRob]

Talk

Lots of people say lots of things but when push comes to shove talk often doesn't turn to action. Keyboard heroes and internet intel are the last I would rely upon.

 

[fireblade]

some here are very sad people .......if i find 2 gun owners who are idiots and careless that must mean all gun owners are ....idiots careless people same thing the op is saying here about the military .....some just like to promote unfounded fear ......

 

[FortWayneGunfighter]

First of all, my son is a Marine Staff Sergeant (up for Gunny) who has been to the sandbox twice. Another has been through Marine OCS. My daughter-in-law is a Marine Sergeant. So I am not unfamiliar with the military. Now that that is out of the way...

I think you are wrong. History in this country has shown us otherwise. Not only that, but as I have said some have admitted that if they were ordered to, they would. They would just be obeying orders and it is not theirs to question.

As to the LEO part of the equation, they would go against US citizens as well. You may have a short memory but one older LEO here stated flat out that he knows the younger men in his department would have no problems disarming American citizens or going against them if told to.

We have a hard enough time trying to keep the LEOs from throwing us in jail now, and we aren't even breaking any laws. Do you know what the FBI has done to American citizens? And I'm not just talking about Ruby Ridge or Waco. I'm talking about lying in federal court.

You sound like a young, naive guy. I wish you were correct, but I do not believe you are.

Oh, in addition to what rambone posted, don't forget that there were more than one hundred dead and wounded, including children and babies, in 1932 when US troops fired on men, women, and children in Washington, D.C.

Yes, the military and law enforcement will do what they are told.

By the way, what's a "real branch" as you say?

One Ill say that while i let my bad day and distaste for your comments obvious do not take me to be naive as i seem. I will tell you i personally asked nearly everyone in my plt and all said that they would follow no such orders (to either disarm or turn on civilians) Not one said they would and the ones i didnt ask i assure you would not follow such orders either. While having family in the military does bring you closer to it it does not mean you can relate to us my fathers father served my uncle served i have served but that does not mean i would let my father talk as if he knew how we would react in certain specific situations especially as a whole military. As for a real branch i mean one that requires its members to work for them everyday sometimes in combat and of whom a majority of its members didnt join to go to college and get a cool uniform to pick up college chicks. Thats just me though and i am in no way saying that there arent excellent people who serve in guard and reserve units but im just saying generally there is a reason they over react or do stupid sh*t they are under trained poorly maintained and generally relate more to their civilian jobs than the military. If you noticed i didnt say a thing about the FBI or LEOs as i cannot speak for them. The regular military(active duty personnel) would not follow orders to disarm or shoot civilians. As i have said earlier we are people too not mindless drones stop assuming we are. Again i speak from the perspective of active duty Marine infantrymen not office POGs or reservists.

 

[FortWayneGunfighter]

We know that federal troops have fired on citizens before. We know about the 29 Palms survey revealing a continued willingness to fire on citizens.

Funny never got that survey....must have been in the field.......