Iron Sights/Optics

[Steelman]

Planning for my first Appleseed.


Current rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a 3x9x40 scope. I was planning on removing the scope and setting up an LTR, but 90% of the folks I see holding a Rifleman patch are also holding a scoped rifle.


What gives? I'd rather use irons. Is the AQT *that* difficult?

 

[Donnelly]

Tagged for responses, especially from trainers. I have the same set-up, but too cheap and lazy to switch over the irons to tech sights (well, probably more cheap than lazy).

 

[AuntieBellum]

Planning for my first Appleseed.


Current rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a 3x9x40 scope. I was planning on removing the scope and setting up an LTR, but 90% of the folks I see holding a Rifleman patch are also holding a scoped rifle.


What gives? I'd rather use irons. Is the AQT *that* difficult?

Scope or irons - makes no difference. It's all in how you use the fundamentals we teach you throughout the weekend. While we shoot at 25 yds, the targets are scaled down to represent 100, 200, 300, and 400 yd targets. Use a scope if you need it/want it, or use irons. Up to you. My eyes are crap, so I often use a scope (astigmatism, bifocals, blah, blah). But I shoot better groups with irons since I'm not subconsciously fussing my shots. You could argue for one or the other all day. In the end, it's all about what you're comfortable with. Hope to see you on the line soon!

 

[Que]

It really doesn't matter what you use. Most people have optics set up on their rifles already, so they just come with what they have. If you desire to take the scope off, that is fine. The true purpose of the training is to teach people how to use what they have. That is why the classes teach zeroing techniques and point of aim for iron sights and various types of optics.

A rifleman can shoot the AQT with or without scopes. The training you will learn will enable you to grasp the skills to shoot any rifle, with or without optics. If a shooter cannot exercise trigger control or adjust his body for natural point of aim, without a scope, most likely he can't do it with a scope. Bottom line, it's not the scope that makes the rifleman, it's the techniques he puts into action when behind the trigger.

 

[goinggreyfast]

It really doesn't matter what you use. Most people have optics set up on their rifles already, so they just come with what they have. If you desire to take the scope off, that is fine. The true purpose of the training is to teach people how to use what they have. That is why the classes teach zeroing techniques and point of aim for iron sights and various types of optics.

A rifleman can shoot the AQT with or without scopes. The training you will learn will enable you to grasp the skills to shoot any rifle, with or without optics. If a shooter cannot exercise trigger control or adjust his body for natural point of aim, without a scope, most likely he can't do it with a scope. Bottom line, it's not the scope that makes the rifleman, it's the techniques he puts into action when behind the trigger.

^^^This^^^

Good response Que!

You know though, I recently took the red dot off my carbine and found that I am more accurate with it by using the stock site. I'm considering doing it with my 22 to see if I am more accurate. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be though.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Planning for my first Appleseed.


Current rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a 3x9x40 scope. I was planning on removing the scope and setting up an LTR, but 90% of the folks I see holding a Rifleman patch are also holding a scoped rifle.


What gives? I'd rather use irons. Is the AQT *that* difficult?

Great answers, AB.

While 10/22 factory sights can be a pain to adjust in tiny increments, many Rifleman patches have been earned using them. Other sighting systems are a measure easier and also have been used to good effect by the Rifleman behind the stock.

Steelman, to your last question, I can only answer with an enigmatic, "more difficult than you think and less difficult than matters."

By that I mean focus on what the instructors are teaching you about marksmanship. (the other stuff too; it's more important, but your question is about shooting) for the weekend, forget what you know about shooting. Many well-experienced shooters, including our own Hawkhavn, tell the story of how they thought they'd kick some butt on the 25 meter AQT, only to leave humbled. Others come in without prior knowledge, some barely able to put shots on paper, and by the end of a day, are shooting 'Expert'... And many combinations within those two scales of experience vs performance.

It's not about the rifle; as any other time, it's about the person holding it.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[jve153]

glad you are taking the leap and wanting to learn. from what i have heard the iron sights are kind of a pain to dial in on the rugers. this is just observation as i do not own one. if you want to run irons, i would HIGHLY recommend tech sights. Tech-SIGHTS Precision Shooting Accessories they are highly adjustable and work great. i have a set on my marlin 795 and absolutely love them. i am going to get my patch with irons before i go scoped, just because i know i can. this will be my third appleseed this weekend, with my highest score so far of 190.

 

[Steelman]

Scope or irons - makes no difference.

This seems to be the official Appleseed motto.


I would think a scope would offer a distinct advantage. I'm a shotgunner - not a rifleman, so I'll take your word on it.


Looking at May for the MCFG shoot.

 

[jve153]

the mcfg shoot is a good one. i did my first appleseed there. make sure you bring some sort of padding as you will be on gravel.

 

[Que]

This seems to be the official Appleseed motto.


I would think a scope would offer a distinct advantage. I'm a shotgunner - not a rifleman, so I'll take your word on it.


Looking at May for the MCFG shoot.

I can certainly see how many would believe a scope adds an advantage and it does! Who can deny that being able to see the target provides an advantage? However, seeing is only one part of shooting to qualify as a rifleman.

You should do like some others have and shoot one Appleseed with a scope and another without. Then shoot the next one with a bolt-action rifle and the one after that with a lever-action. After that, you should shoot with a Mosin at Camp Atterbury and the next with an AK or AR.

 

[VERT]

Appleseed is something that I would really like to try. The only .22 I have left is a bolt action with a scope. It does have a sling. Thoughts about my bringing my squirrel gun. I do have a conversion kit for the AR-15 but that is probably not accurate enough.

 

[jve153]

depending on the venue, you can bring you ar and shoot it without the conversion.

 

[grunt soldier]

Planning for my first Appleseed.


Current rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a 3x9x40 scope. I was planning on removing the scope and setting up an LTR, but 90% of the folks I see holding a Rifleman patch are also holding a scoped rifle.


What gives? I'd rather use irons. Is the AQT *that* difficult?

I think most instructors I know and have worked with have both options. I don't think either offers you more a distinct advantage unless you have bad eyes. I have shot my best score with tech sights. what I have noticed personally with me is a I pay a lot more attention to my steady hold factors and npoa when using irons. I find myself trying to muscle the rifle a bit more when I have the scope on. with the iron sights you learn to trust your npoa and that is why it is often recommend by experienced instructors that you turn your scope all the way down to it's lowest power. it forces you to trust your npoa and that is one of the biggest factors to shooting well, all this is IMO of coarse

 

[yellowhousejake]

all this is IMO of coarse

Don't believe it, that there is instructor speak and he is perfectly correct.

My best score with a bolt action was with a $90 Mossburg plinkster and a $30 Leapers scope. I did 230+ multiple times in a row with CCI Mini Mags. Mudcat has done better with a Savage. No target stuff, no match barrel, no fancy ammo.

If you are used to the bolt gun, I recommend you use it.

YHJ

 

[jve153]

there was a young kid a couple weeks ago at the rochester event rocking a bolt action and nailed the riflemanscore repeatedly. i think he was 12 or 13. amazing.

 

[spitfire51]

Appleseed is something that I would really like to try. The only .22 I have left is a bolt action with a scope. It does have a sling. Thoughts about my bringing my squirrel gun. I do have a conversion kit for the AR-15 but that is probably not accurate enough.

A scoped bolt action with a sling? Perfect! A conversion kit for an AR-15? Perfect! Not much info on the squirrel gun to judge, but sounds like it could be perfect too! Noticing a trend here? My new favorite phrase to throw out is that if your rifle shoots bullets and has sights, it's good to go for Appleseed.

Last summer in my quest to make Rifleman I tried to make it with tech sights and did well but not over the 210 hump. Then I put a scope on my 10-22 and took it to the range with some practice AQTs. I shot the EXACT same scores that I had done with the tech sights (ok, maybe not exactly the same, but within a couple points). The point I'm trying to make is that a scope will help in some areas, but it will not make up for poor trigger control, not having natural point of aim, or having a less than perfect position.

I wouldn't worry too much about what sights you use. It's way more important that you take the time to come to an event. See you out there!

 

[Bill of Rights]

Appleseed is something that I would really like to try. The only .22 I have left is a bolt action with a scope. It does have a sling. Thoughts about my bringing my squirrel gun. I do have a conversion kit for the AR-15 but that is probably not accurate enough.

I first scored Rifleman with a scoped, bolt-action Savage in .22LR with a sling. This was pre-Accu-trigger, BTW.

With a bolt, you have to break your position between shots and you have to be fast working the bolt on the timed stages, but you concentrate on getting back into position each time and if/when you switch to a semi-auto, it makes the course of fire seem relaxed by comparison. If your rifle is safe to shoot, don't let it being either scoped or bolt-action keep you from bringing it.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[philagothon]

Bring what you have. The fundamentals apply to all rifles and we teach proper sight alignment, picture, and adjustment for them all. If you can see a 1" square at 25 yards your eyes are good enough. A scope can help, but it can also hurt. Most scopes I see are not set for proper eye relief and/or the rings are too tall to establish a proper cheek weld. Those things can be fixed, but it's no fun breaking your focus to work on your rifle.

I earned my patch with a scoped, bolt-action Savage with the scope cranked to MAX (gotta be able to see to see right?). At my first shoot as an IIT Yellowhousejake forced me to shoot the demo AQT with a used 10/22 I'd just bought that happened to have Tech Sights on it. I was forced to quit BSing my way through the AQT and truly practice what we preach. I shot my best score ever that day. When I quit making sure which grain of paper I was aiming for and started focusing on the steady hold factors and six steps to firing a shot, I found what it meant to be a Rifleman.

 

[Phil502]

Planning for my first Appleseed.


Current rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a 3x9x40 scope. I was planning on removing the scope and setting up an LTR, but 90% of the folks I see holding a Rifleman patch are also holding a scoped rifle.


What gives? I'd rather use irons. Is the AQT *that* difficult?

If you can see the targets at 80 feet, either way is good, scopes can be burden too.

 

[yellowhousejake]

Is the AQT *that* difficult?

I can be, if you make it so. I was Shoot Boss at an event in KY where we had a Distinguished Rifleman and a CMP Master Instructor on the line. They didn't make the score first try, or the second. The DR commented that it was harder than he thought it would be.

He made it his third try and then backed it up, but he had to shoot as if he was at a HP match. Six steps, steady hold factors, trigger control. If you go in thinking 25 yards with a 22 is for kids, the kids will out score you. I've seen it way too often. But if you listen and apply the instruction, you will do well and leave able to make hits at 500, and know why you did.

In the end, you will need to apply what we teach, and practice it to become proficient. Marksmanship is not something you can unwrap and bolt on, it happens in your noggin and it takes more than a weekend. We can lay out the path, but the rest is up to you.

YHJ