Is Musk a con artist?

[BugI02]

It seems this guy is constantly coming up with new sensational press. Today I read about a semi tractor he introduced and a sports car that goes zero to sixty in less than two seconds.

Meanwhile he has thousands of customers who put deposits on cars that for some reason he can't produce.

He has had heavy government subsidies and his company hasn't ever shown a profit.

My antenna tells me this is, at some point, going to all come crashing down. Am I alone in this thinking?

I think he's a modern day Nikola Tesla - brilliant, quirky, unstable and not really a businessman. I believe his story is more likely to end badly than not

The constant distractions of new ideas/products seems a bit Madoffian - "ignore the man [accountant] behind the curtain"

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think he's a modern day Nikola Tesla - brilliant, quirky, unstable and not really a businessman.

I'd say his background indicates he's pretty good as a businessman. He's a hard worker, networks well, and is apparently a natural salesman. He, along with his brother took $28k, started his first business, and sold it for over $300 million 4 years later. He got something like $20 million out of it. That exit is how he got started in what would become Paypal. When he sold Paypal 3 years later, he got about $180 million. Even before that, he was an entrepreneur. Selling computers, running a underground bar, programming, and that was in high school and college.

It's hard for me to argue that someone who took $28k and turned it into returns for his investor (his father) AND turned his portion into $180 million in roughly 7 years doesn't have a head for business.

 

[bwframe]

I kinda like Amber Heard, does that count?

 

[Thor]

Pull the taxpayer support from him and see how long he lasts. He's like wind energy...no subsidies no business. Tesla has yet to show a profit despite massive support and overpriced cars. Oh yeah, and a truck with no production capacity to make it.

He's a carny barker...but not that that won't take you to the top. There's a fool born every minute.

 

[vitamink]

He apparently solved male pattern balding with batteries and space missiles.

 

[rob63]

The difference between a visionary and a kook is whether the ending is happy or sad. We won't know which he is until the credits roll.

I liked the comparison to Howard Hughes earlier, seems very apt.

 

[femurphy77]

He's a visionary in a field where they don't want visionaries. Energy isn't just big money it's HUGE money and all of the old school players are doing everything they can to downplay ANY technology they can that is going to cut into their profits. Oil won't last forever but with a little vision even the oil companies would continue to rake in money at the same time embracing new technologies but I believe they are so focused on squeezing out maximum dollars right up to the second the tap runs dry that they are blinded to the realities of it.

Technology has take the internal combustion engine way beyond where anybody thought it could go even 40 years ago. Are there efficiencies yet to be attained? Yes there are but the cost vs return is rapidly growing to the point of obsolescence. I'm thinking about buying a newer truck in a year or two, at the most basic level I want it to have a back seat, 4wd and be able to pull 8000 lbs without problem. Interestingly enough the one driveline that has me intrigued is the twin turbo ecoboost V6 that ford is offering. This thing is giving numbers that just a few years ago took a big block and lousy gas mileage that most likely was temperamental to boot.

Granted the mileage of the ecoboost combination doesn't appear to be all that great in the mileage department and the engine could be considered to be living on the edge to get the horsepower and torques numbers it's getting but by the time I lay down the hard earned coin there will no doubt be enough evidence out there one way or the other.

No I'm rooting for Musk and hope that he wins his battle against big oil because we need pioneers, think where we'd be today without the Wright brothers, Watt, Edison, Diesel and thousands of others.

 

[Dentoro]

His company makes like 70 cars a month. It has 1/4 the tooling costs and moving parts. And it it worth more than Toyota and GM who male millions of cars. Even with big subsities from the gooberment he can't make money? But he lives like a king! Yea, he is dirty.

 

[spec4]

Imo, you’re crazy to think this. Tesla was going no where for the longest time. It appeared to be a fad that was dying off, so Elon turned his attention to SpaceX. SpaceX is genuinely changing the game when it cones to space travel/launches, and this is where the money is going to be. Elon knows that, so that’s where the time and resources are going. Tesla is an afterthought, and is getting the kind of attention afterthoughts do.

Is he a con artist? Absolutely not. Is he bad at managing multiple companies? Absolutely

Crazy? No, just very skeptical. I spent 40 years in the credit industry, both loan companies and banking. While most folks have every intention of honoring contracts they enter into, there are also some real BS artists out there that throw a lot of pie in the sky at you if you are naive enough to loan them money. If their schemes work you will probably get your money back. If not, oh well. Understand, anyone extending credit will have losses. The key is to keep them at a minimum if you wish to stay in business. The government on the other hand doesn't have to worry about losses. Courtesy of us taxpayers, Musk has had billions of government largesse in various forms.

Doing some Googling I found at one point he was talking about producing 10,000 cars a week. He is currently running in the area of 250 a week. Later he said production would be 5000 a week by yearend. That has been changed to 5000 cars a week by March, 2018. If he achieves that, I will back off somewhat on my opinion. Maybe we can revisit this thread in March and I can be proven wrong.

How long will those who put deposits on the Model 3 be willing to wait?

 

[mdemetz]

Ex-General Motors exec Bob Lutz calls Tesla a 'losing enterprise' - Business Insider

 

[BugI02]

He certainly would know what one looks like, lolz

 

[rob63]

Crazy? No, just very skeptical. I spent 40 years in the credit industry, both loan companies and banking. While most folks have every intention of honoring contracts they enter into, there are also some real BS artists out there that throw a lot of pie in the sky at you if you are naive enough to loan them money. If their schemes work you will probably get your money back. If not, oh well. Understand, anyone extending credit will have losses. The key is to keep them at a minimum if you wish to stay in business. The government on the other hand doesn't have to worry about losses. Courtesy of us taxpayers, Musk has had billions of government largesse in various forms.

Doing some Googling I found at one point he was talking about producing 10,000 cars a week. He is currently running in the area of 250 a week. Later he said production would be 5000 a week by yearend. That has been changed to 5000 cars a week by March, 2018. If he achieves that, I will back off somewhat on my opinion. Maybe we can revisit this thread in March and I can be proven wrong.

How long will those who put deposits on the Model 3 be willing to wait?

My first job as a young engineer was at a GM Cadillac assembly plant in the mid '80's. If I remember correctly, we ran a line speed of 50 cars per hour and it was considered slow by industry standards.

 

[bwframe]

Ever wonder if the auto industry has lulled us into paying crazy high money for the value received?

 

[Butch627]

Ever wonder if the auto industry has lulled us into paying crazy high money for the value received?

Look at the features, reliability. longevity, cost of ownership and price of a car 50 years ago vs today and you will better appreciate the value of modern cars

 

[bwframe]

Look at the features, reliability. longevity, cost of ownership and price of a car 50 years ago vs today and you will better appreciate the value of modern cars

Aaaaaaaaahhhhh.....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

His company makes like 70 cars a month. It has 1/4 the tooling costs and moving parts. And it it worth more than Toyota and GM who male millions of cars. Even with big subsities from the gooberment he can't make money? But he lives like a king! Yea, he is dirty.

You do realize Tesla isn't his only company, nor the source of his income...right?

 

[churchmouse]

Aaaaaaaaahhhhh.....

-Dialy drivers commonly eclipsing 250K with just minimal maint.
-Mileage/HP numbers that are very respectable.
-Safety features/crash survival unheard of 20 years ago.
-Damn tings will park themselves.
-Damn thing watch out for pedestrians etc and stop themselves.
-Damn things know when you wonder out of your lane and signal you.
-Last 2 are cell phone related of course but they will do these things.
-Heated seats.
-Heated mirrors.
-Anti-locs that actually work.
-Traction controllers.
-Head lights that pierce the night.
-Running lights that you can not help but see,
-Play stations.
-DVD players
-Sound systems that are amazing
-Navigation
-WiFi for cripes sake
-Navastar
I could go on and on.

 

[bwframe]

-Dialy drivers commonly eclipsing 250K with just minimal maint.
-Mileage/HP numbers that are very respectable.
-Safety features/crash survival unheard of 20 years ago.
-Damn tings will park themselves.
-Damn thing watch out for pedestrians etc and stop themselves.
-Damn things know when you wonder out of your lane and signal you.
-Last 2 are cell phone related of course but they will do these things.
-Heated seats.
-Heated mirrors.
-Anti-locs that actually work.
-Traction controllers.
-Head lights that pierce the night.
-Running lights that you can not help but see,
-Play stations.
-DVD players
-Sound systems that are amazing
-Navigation
-WiFi for cripes sake
-Navastar
I could go on and on.

Yep. We have to pay and pay and pay for all that stuff whether we asked for it or not.

When was the last time anyone reading this paid cash for a new vehicle?

 

[gregkl]

Tesla is one of my customers. That doesn't make me an expert in all things Tesla or Elon Musk. But having spent my life in the automotive industry I know a thing or two.

The launch difficulties he's having with the Model 3 were foreseen over a year ago when he started accepting deposits. It's not uncommon for new vehicle launches to get pushed out and/or start slower than expected. It's happening to him and it's happened to virtually all of the automakers that have been in business since Ford busted out the door to get his first car out.

The roadster he brought out this week was just a teaser. It's not a model that is launched or will be anytime soon. He is just showing the world that electrification of the automobile is viable.

Like other's have said, he is a visionary, has deeeeeep pockets and knows how to make money.

Oh, those of us who think cars are expensive need to spend some time around the Tier 1, 2 and 3 automotive companies and see what it takes to get that shiny new car to your driveway. We make headlamp assemblies that have 6-7 lens, brackets, light blockers, etc. and the cost to make just one of those lens is astonishing.

 

[edporch]

Yep. We have to pay and pay and pay for all that stuff whether we asked for it or not.

When was the last time anyone reading this paid cash for a new vehicle?

I paid cash for my last vehicle in Fall of 2015.