Johnson County at it again....

[Kutnupe14]

More like MCPA than IMPD.

yeah, that not on IMPD... that's on the Court

 

[OS3-USN]

I, and a great many officers like me, are often respectful to a fault, and will always defer to your Constitutionally provided rights, should you express them, that still does not change how we are expected to serve the public (obviously within the confines of law).

There is not a single right is provided by the Constitution.

 

[OS3-USN]

BTW not true. You have a duty to act. From the fed to state down to department SOPS.

Even if you didn't your in the wrong line of work if you don't?

That is not on my car anyways.

You are wrong again. The Police: No Duty To Protect Individuals - Gun Owners Of America

 

[OS3-USN]

This goes back to the driving is a right now a privileged. Ive arrested some really bad people from a license plate check.

But driving IS a right. If it's not show me where either the State or Federal Constitution gives government the authority to restrict travel.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Then let's deal with hypotheticals then:

If your car was stolen, and a law enforcement officer (not looking for that car) ran the plate at random and discovered that the vehcile was stolen, should the theif get off based on officer's "fishing" with no PC or RS to do so?

-OR-

If your 12 year old was kidnapped by a person with active warrants, and a random plate check notified law enforcement that the person had an active warrant, in which he is stopped subsequently arrested and your child returned to you.... would you have a problem with the method in which your child was returned to you, thinking that there's a "better" option? And if he get's off because (using your viewpoing as the status quo), an officer stopped him without PC/RS, you'd wouldnt have issue with that?

I dont give up rights for false promises of safety and security. What happens happens.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I would lean towards "yes," but I'm not sure that we can quite lump vehicle searches together with what you suggested. State-issued license plates are in plain view by definition and drivers have no misconception that they are private in any fashion. The inside of your vehicle is another story.

Bingo

 

[Keyser Soze]

But driving IS a right. If it's not show me where either the State or Federal Constitution gives government the authority to restrict travel.

Drive around the land that you personally own all you want. I swear I wont run your plate.

 

[INGunGuy]

Drive around the land that you personally own all you want. I swear I wont run your plate.

Ok, I will ALMOST agree that driving is a privilege and not a right. BUT Walking is by Gawd a RIGHT, I can walk anywhere I want other than a few limited locations, limited access highways, private property, etc. So, I can walk from Maine to California and have that RIGHT. So, if someone is just walking down the street minding their own business then dont you dare come up and ask to "Ausweiss Bitte?" Just because you feel you want to. If there is RAS or PC, you better make is damn well known what it is, and that I am being detained before I give you one damn piece of personally identifiable information. There is NO requirement to have any kind of identification whatsoever.

INGunGuy

 

[OS3-USN]

Drive around the land that you personally own all you want. I swear I wont run your plate.

Because you don't understand that government protects rights, not grant them does not change the fact that I possess the right to travel as I see fit as long as I do not violate the equal natural rights of others. I'm still waiting on the Constitutional citation giving government the power to restrict how I travel.

Run my plates all you want. You wont be allowed to search my vehicle.

 

[jsharmon7]

Because you don't understand that government protects rights, not grant them does not change the fact that I possess the right to travel as I see fit as long as I do not violate the equal natural rights of others. I'm still waiting on the Constitutional citation giving government the power to restrict how I travel.

Run my plates all you want. You wont be allowed to search my vehicle.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Because you don't understand that government protects rights, not grant them does not change the fact that I possess the right to travel as I see fit as long as I do not violate the equal natural rights of others. I'm still waiting on the Constitutional citation giving government the power to restrict how I travel.

Run my plates all you want. You wont be allowed to search my vehicle.

I've gotten into this discussion with another friend of mine. The whole concept of natural rights. You are totally correct in your assessment that the govt does not "grant" rights, but is to "protect" them however, in our nation's history, from the very outset, rights have always been granted first, and protected second.
The idea of natural rights does not exist without govt. The only right that exists sans govt is that of might.

 

[CVMA544]

This is a long one, and I am sure it will draw fire from both sides.

I am not an active LEO anymore; I was placed on disability after my return from an Iraq deployment.

Prior to that I was a road officer for 8 years and then a supervisor for 5 years.
I started out of the academy ready to save the world! It took about a year to realize the academy is one thing and the street was another.

Just a few tidbits for the grinder and y’all can have at it.

I always have agreed with the police telling the citizen their rights. Why? It also serves to remind and reinforce to the officer their lawful limits. (Implied Consent, Miranda, Pirtle, etc.)

I worked a rural county so after awhile you see the same people over and over. Through personal experience just because you arrest Snuffy Smith on Friday night DUI doesn’t mean that call to his house the next week is any the less of a call for assistance than from anyone else.

Stopped a lot of CCW permit holders, sometimes they told me, sometimes I seen the little pink paper in the wallet but the information wasn’t offered. My actions were always pretty much the same.

Are you armed? (Yes)

Where is it? (Hip, glove box, under seat, etc)

Leave it there and we will be fine. Then conduct the rest of the business of the traffic stop.

You have a permit and aren’t drunk, sick (I mean like going to hospital sick) injured, or have an active warrant then I don’t want to see, touch, hold, check, or molest your weapon in any way. It’s yours not the states, not the county’s, not the city’s, and not mine.

During emergencies like traffic accidents and situations where people have been hurt and need to go the hospital I have taken the weapon with me and delivered it to the spouse, son, daughter the permit holder wanted me to.

On a few severe crashes I have removed the weapon from a deceased or unconscious victim (and if the unconscious comes to at the hospital proceeded with delivering it to whom they requested)

The EMS system and Hospital have enough to do, and since it is a weapon I always felt by virtue of the victims bad luck I should assume responsibility for the firearm until the owner could direct disposition.

Some not all EMS people are uneasy with a weapon in their ambulance and even in slight injury cases I have done the delivery boy routine. (And I never ran the serial numbers)

As for traffic stops, as I said I worked a rural area, sometimes back up was 15 minutes or more away. On more than one occasion at zero dark thirty in the morning I have had Joe Citizen stop on the other side of the road, or in front of the stopped vehicle and shout out “You Okay?”

On a couple occasions a citizen that I had stopped previously or knew in passing has “watched” the stop until I released the vehicle or back up arrived.

I was not afraid to conduct the stops in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, but it was always was nice to see a regular person care enough to stop and at least be a witness.

I have had people come out on their front porch and watch and afterwards I have spoken to those who have stopped and watched. I always got the same story, man your crazy out here alone, and thought I would make sure your okay. Of course I thanked them and explain not all officers would react as I did.

The LEO’s here can tell me how lucky I am not to have been killed, and the non-LEO’s will probably find something they didn’t like.

I can only speak as a rural officer working in a small population where everybody knows you because you’re a LEO, and you see the same faces everyday because you’re working in the community and interacting with the people.

As an example I would see the same blue Ford truck going to work every day on the same road at the same time. I had my usual vehicles I seen every morning, after awhile there is the morning wave thing going on, maybe bumping into them at the gas station getting the morning coffee.

Then comes the morning an hour late a speeding blue Ford truck, going fast enough that I should issue a ticket and not a warning.

Of course I stop them,… on approach, Oversleep? Baby was up all night sick; I know how that is, slow down a bit okay? Yes Sir, oh by the way deer are running heavy out by Cato road watch it when you get there, okay thanks, you’re not gonna gimme a ticket? Just slow down and get to work, you’re late already.

I hated writing tickets; I gave a ton of warnings. I preferred to patrol the county roads and look for people up to no good, like stealing from rural residences and farms, or making meth and the like.

Those folks that live out in the sticks notice a police car driving thru in the middle of the night, word gets out that patrols are being done, people know who the officer is and they will approach and say thanks.

That to me is what made the job worth doing. Or seeing a garage door open on some ones house you have passed a hundred times in the middle of the night and taking a closer via spot light only to met by the owner who over a cup of coffee tells you he has seen you patrolling in the night lots of times and appreciates it.

To me that is as rewarding as catching a criminal, and I caught a bunch over years.

Yes I run plates, I ran out of county plates on vehicles in rural areas near farm buildings and rural properties where I had never seen them before, if nothing came up missing then it was for nothing, if something came up missing the next few days then I had a possible lead to look into.

Some may have a problem with my nosey attitude, but in the areas I patrolled I always thought the people deserved someone watching over their stuff when they couldn’t.

As for vehicle searches, I have asked, but I always had a reason to search before I asked, about half the time they would consent. I don’t ever recall searching a vehicle as a fishing expedition.

There are too many others out there that may as well be waving a flag that says “Arrest me”

But I wasn’t a very good cop, I trusted people to do the right thing too much, but I am still alive, and still live in the county I worked, and even now retired I can go to the store and look those people I worked for in the eye and not feel guilty about the way I tended the flock on my watch.

 

[OS3-USN]

I've gotten into this discussion with another friend of mine. The whole concept of natural rights. You are totally correct in your assessment that the govt does not "grant" rights, but is to "protect" them however, in our nation's history, from the very outset, rights have always been granted first, and protected second.
The idea of natural rights does not exist without govt. The only right that exists sans govt is that of might.

When did government grant us the right to free speech, to religion, to bear arms...etc...? First you agree that government does not grant rights, and then say that it does. The idea of natural rights does indeed exist without government,. The Founders were big fans of our natural rights but not so much when it came to government. Government is force. Everything it achieves or possesses it does through force.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Ok, I will ALMOST agree that driving is a privilege and not a right. BUT Walking is by Gawd a RIGHT, I can walk anywhere I want other than a few limited locations, limited access highways, private property, etc. So, I can walk from Maine to California and have that RIGHT. So, if someone is just walking down the street minding their own business then dont you dare come up and ask to "Ausweiss Bitte?" Just because you feel you want to. If there is RAS or PC, you better make is damn well known what it is, and that I am being detained before I give you one damn piece of personally identifiable information. There is NO requirement to have any kind of identification whatsoever.

INGunGuy

Actually.....I think most states have silly vagrancy laws that require a person to have photo ID on there person when in public. Some places even require "X" amount of cash on ones person. I know these are old laws and many have been stricken down if only by case law, but still.....

 

[CVMA544]

When did government grant us the right to free speech, to religion, to bear arms...etc...? First you agree that government does not grant rights, and then say that it does. The idea of natural rights does indeed exist without government,. The Founders were big fans of our natural rights but not so much when it came to government. Government is force. Everything it achieves or possesses it does through force.

IMHO, Natural rights predate the Constitution, we are born with them. The Constitution limits the intrusion the govt has on the natural rights and is supposed to protect us from the govt.

The govt never gives anything, it only takes, the Constitution is supposed to protect the people and provide the rules so that all people can live in a civilized society. Those rules (Constitution) is supposed to be protected by the govt from those outside, and inside force which seek to deny them to her citizens.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

This is a long one, and I am sure it will draw fire from both sides.

I am not an active LEO anymore; I was placed on disability after my return from an Iraq deployment.

Prior to that I was a road officer for 8 years and then a supervisor for 5 years.
I started out of the academy ready to save the world! It took about a year to realize the academy is one thing and the street was another.

Just a few tidbits for the grinder and y’all can have at it.

I always have agreed with the police telling the citizen their rights. Why? It also serves to remind and reinforce to the officer their lawful limits. (Implied Consent, Miranda, Pirtle, etc.)

I worked a rural county so after awhile you see the same people over and over. Through personal experience just because you arrest Snuffy Smith on Friday night DUI doesn’t mean that call to his house the next week is any the less of a call for assistance than from anyone else.

Stopped a lot of CCW permit holders, sometimes they told me, sometimes I seen the little pink paper in the wallet but the information wasn’t offered. My actions were always pretty much the same.

Are you armed? (Yes)

Where is it? (Hip, glove box, under seat, etc)

Leave it there and we will be fine. Then conduct the rest of the business of the traffic stop.

You have a permit and aren’t drunk, sick (I mean like going to hospital sick) injured, or have an active warrant then I don’t want to see, touch, hold, check, or molest your weapon in any way. It’s yours not the states, not the county’s, not the city’s, and not mine.

During emergencies like traffic accidents and situations where people have been hurt and need to go the hospital I have taken the weapon with me and delivered it to the spouse, son, daughter the permit holder wanted me to.

On a few severe crashes I have removed the weapon from a deceased or unconscious victim (and if the unconscious comes to at the hospital proceeded with delivering it to whom they requested)

The EMS system and Hospital have enough to do, and since it is a weapon I always felt by virtue of the victims bad luck I should assume responsibility for the firearm until the owner could direct disposition.

Some not all EMS people are uneasy with a weapon in their ambulance and even in slight injury cases I have done the delivery boy routine. (And I never ran the serial numbers)

As for traffic stops, as I said I worked a rural area, sometimes back up was 15 minutes or more away. On more than one occasion at zero dark thirty in the morning I have had Joe Citizen stop on the other side of the road, or in front of the stopped vehicle and shout out “You Okay?”

On a couple occasions a citizen that I had stopped previously or knew in passing has “watched” the stop until I released the vehicle or back up arrived.

I was not afraid to conduct the stops in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, but it was always was nice to see a regular person care enough to stop and at least be a witness.

I have had people come out on their front porch and watch and afterwards I have spoken to those who have stopped and watched. I always got the same story, man your crazy out here alone, and thought I would make sure your okay. Of course I thanked them and explain not all officers would react as I did.

The LEO’s here can tell me how lucky I am not to have been killed, and the non-LEO’s will probably find something they didn’t like.

I can only speak as a rural officer working in a small population where everybody knows you because you’re a LEO, and you see the same faces everyday because you’re working in the community and interacting with the people.

As an example I would see the same blue Ford truck going to work every day on the same road at the same time. I had my usual vehicles I seen every morning, after awhile there is the morning wave thing going on, maybe bumping into them at the gas station getting the morning coffee.

Then comes the morning an hour late a speeding blue Ford truck, going fast enough that I should issue a ticket and not a warning.

Of course I stop them,… on approach, Oversleep? Baby was up all night sick; I know how that is, slow down a bit okay? Yes Sir, oh by the way deer are running heavy out by Cato road watch it when you get there, okay thanks, you’re not gonna gimme a ticket? Just slow down and get to work, you’re late already.

I hated writing tickets; I gave a ton of warnings. I preferred to patrol the county roads and look for people up to no good, like stealing from rural residences and farms, or making meth and the like.

Those folks that live out in the sticks notice a police car driving thru in the middle of the night, word gets out that patrols are being done, people know who the officer is and they will approach and say thanks.

That to me is what made the job worth doing. Or seeing a garage door open on some ones house you have passed a hundred times in the middle of the night and taking a closer via spot light only to met by the owner who over a cup of coffee tells you he has seen you patrolling in the night lots of times and appreciates it.

To me that is as rewarding as catching a criminal, and I caught a bunch over years.

Yes I run plates, I ran out of county plates on vehicles in rural areas near farm buildings and rural properties where I had never seen them before, if nothing came up missing then it was for nothing, if something came up missing the next few days then I had a possible lead to look into.

Some may have a problem with my nosey attitude, but in the areas I patrolled I always thought the people deserved someone watching over their stuff when they couldn’t.

As for vehicle searches, I have asked, but I always had a reason to search before I asked, about half the time they would consent. I don’t ever recall searching a vehicle as a fishing expedition.

There are too many others out there that may as well be waving a flag that says “Arrest me”

But I wasn’t a very good cop, I trusted people to do the right thing too much, but I am still alive, and still live in the county I worked, and even now retired I can go to the store and look those people I worked for in the eye and not feel guilty about the way I tended the flock on my watch.

If everything is as you say (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), you are a good peace officer and I thank you for your service both here and abroad. I would be proud to call you neighbor, friend, etc....It is sad and unfortunate that you are unable to continue in at least a training capacity. We need more like you. I also DO understand that things NEED to be a bit different in an urban setting.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

IMHO, Natural rights predate the Constitution, we are born with them. The Constitution limits the intrusion the govt has on the natural rights and is supposed to protect us from the govt.

The govt never gives anything, it only takes, the Constitution is supposed to protect the people and provide the rules so that all people can live in a civilized society. Those rules (Constitution) is supposed to be protected by the govt from those outside, and inside force which seek to deny them to her citizens.

The COTUS is little more than a contract between the Federal Gov and the State governments. If more State governments understood this along with the 10th amendment, we would have little need for this forum and NO need for permits to carry.

 

[CVMA544]

If everything is as you say (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), you are a good peace officer and I thank you for your service both here and abroad. I would be proud to call you neighbor, friend, etc....It is sad and unfortunate that you are unable to continue in at least a training capacity. We need more like you. I also DO understand that things NEED to be a bit different in an urban setting.

I avoided the urban policing, although I have done it. I hated having to work large metro areas, I am too laid back for that, and I knew it. I sought out the area best suited for me.

Not to say I wouldn't be aggresive when need be, I just wanted the slower pace to raise my kids in. We seen enough big city stuff in the military and I don't like being crowded in.

Most younger guys are all gung-ho and better fitted to the urban thing, unfortunatley some can be full of themselves, and rub people the wrong way.

I appreciate the compliment.

 

[Kutnupe14]

When did government grant us the right to free speech, to religion, to bear arms...etc...? First you agree that government does not grant rights, and then say that it does. The idea of natural rights does indeed exist without government,. The Founders were big fans of our natural rights but not so much when it came to government. Government is force. Everything it achieves or possesses it does through force.

Natural rights is a moral concept. It means many differing things to different people. That said, there is noting innate about natural rights.

 

[public servant]

I'll take this one:

First thing is to hide the body.