Johnson just lost my vote with his Anti 2A VP choice

[KG1]

This administration has been flooding the country with a illegals for a reason. More of the same if HRC is elected.

 

[IndyDave1776]

This administration has been flooding the country with a illegals for a reason. More of the same if HRC is elected.

Exactly. Flood the place with illegals, amnesty, instant voting bloc.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I think Tombs is right. (Seriously.)

Freedom is scary. Liberty is dangerous. (And I'm not just talking Liberty Sanders.) With more freedom comes less safety net, more chance of ending up in really bad shape.

Rather than that being a motivating factor, pushing people not to mess up, generational decision to provide a gov't safety net have caused ordinary Americans to expect that safety net. Then, to expect more of it.

I don't think an "iron fist" is the right analogy. It is more like kicking a fledgling bird out of the nest so it can fly. Yes, it is a cold decision, but necessary for that bird to grow.

It doesn't take an iron fist to force people not to take social security. That doesn't make sense. You just take social security away. I'm not saying that's a good starting point - it isn't. Its a terrible starting point. But, we can probably start with some of the cheaper, more narrowly focused assistance programs to scale back. Incrementalism.

(Plus, GenX and younger aren't even counting on social security anyway.)

Since personal freedom is apparently NOT a normal human condition (in the sense that it isn't "instinctive" and most people aren't fanatical about having it), it makes no sense to me to talk about "stripping" governmental "safety" away. There are, in my opinion, exactly two ways in which a society will ever regain the concept of "personal freedom and responsibility" once it has lost it: either through the same slow process of education through which the concepts were degraded in the first place (a potentially MUCH longer process because it's so much easier to teach humans slavery than it is to inculcate personal freedom and personal responsibility) or a major societal breakdown or catastrophe which destroys or degrades the current societal norms into uselessness. Of the two conditions, I believe the latter is more likely to occur than the former.

That being said, and contrary to what I have maintained for years, if ever there was a perfect time for the Libertarians to get their **** together and present a viable alternative to the Dems and GOP, THIS is the election cycle in which to do it. Doesn't look like they can get it done, though.

 

[True Dat]

Deleted

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This administration has been flooding the country with a illegals for a reason. More of the same if HRC is elected.

The previous administration did the same. Neither party wants to fix illegal immigration. Democrats want the votes and Republicans want the cheap labor. Trump will be no different, as a politician he's down on immigrant taking American jobs because that's what's selling at the moment, as a business owner he's sang a different tune. The Libertarian party wants an amnesty, but it's not an amnesty because they'll have to pay fines and back taxes... *eye roll*.

 

[KG1]

The previous administration did the same. Neither party wants to fix illegal immigration. Democrats want the votes and Republicans want the cheap labor. Trump will be no different, as a politician he's down on immigrant taking American jobs because that's what's selling at the moment, as a business owner he's sang a different tune. The Libertarian party wants an amnesty, but it's not an amnesty because they'll have to pay fines and back taxes... *eye roll*.

I'm not disputing any of the points you make. My point is that one of those party's motive's are specifically designed to change the socio-political landscape of the country in an effort to dominate.

It's not too difficult to figure out which one that is.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Supposedly, Weld has seen the error of his ways. I just read this quote:

"Today, almost 25 years later, I would make some different choices. Restricting Americans’ gun rights doesn’t make us safer, and threatens our constitutional freedoms. I was pleased by and support the Supreme Court’s decision in the District of Columbia vs. Heller -- a decision that embraced the notion that our Second Amendment rights are individual rights, not to be abridged by the government."

Still not sure Im convinced. (but I wanted to be fair and put all the info out there)

 

[KLB]

Supposedly, Weld has seen the error of his ways. I just read this quote:

"Today, almost 25 years later, I would make some different choices. Restricting Americans’ gun rights doesn’t make us safer, and threatens our constitutional freedoms. I was pleased by and support the Supreme Court’s decision in the District of Columbia vs. Heller -- a decision that embraced the notion that our Second Amendment rights are individual rights, not to be abridged by the government."

Still not sure Im convinced. (but I wanted to be fair and put all the info out there)

Very possible. I know my views have changed drastically in 25 years.

 

[T.Lex]

...I wanted to be fair and put all the info out there)

Welcome to INGO. You must be new here.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Billy Weld's long, strange trip: Bill Weld: A Libertarian Vice Presidential Contender's Journey | National Review

I'd like to get some sleep before I travel, but if you've got a warrant, you might as well come on in.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Supposedly, Weld has seen the error of his ways. I just read this quote:

"Today, almost 25 years later, I would make some different choices. Restricting Americans’ gun rights doesn’t make us safer, and threatens our constitutional freedoms. I was pleased by and support the Supreme Court’s decision in the District of Columbia vs. Heller -- a decision that embraced the notion that our Second Amendment rights are individual rights, not to be abridged by the government."

Still not sure Im convinced. (but I wanted to be fair and put all the info out there)

Maybe, maybe not. My concern would be that he spent so much time and effort really putting his back into it. Then again, the same could be said of Reagan. In Trump's case, I have not been so concerned because it wasn't a position he invested anything in supporting when he gave anti-gun legislation a go-along-to-get-along nod, and his sons taking him to task on it strikes me as plausible. I would like to think that someone sensible did the same with Weld at some point, or perhaps better yet, he was able to see the error from the lack of productive results from the Clinton anti-gun laws.

Even if Weld truly did 'get religion' concerning guns, we are still left with Johnson's stated positions on forcing bakers to bake against their convictions, calling Trump a Nazi for wanting to deport people who are here ILLEGALLY, and wanting open borders, essentially forgetting that he is running for president of the United STATES, not the United NATIONS.

 

[chipbennett]

Supposedly, Weld has seen the error of his ways. I just read this quote:

"Today, almost 25 years later, I would make some different choices. Restricting Americans’ gun rights doesn’t make us safer, and threatens our constitutional freedoms. I was pleased by and support the Supreme Court’s decision in the District of Columbia vs. Heller -- a decision that embraced the notion that our Second Amendment rights are individual rights, not to be abridged by the government."

Still not sure Im convinced. (but I wanted to be fair and put all the info out there)

Well, this will be interesting to watch play out - namely, the reaction of those who have criticized Trump for something he wrote in a book 20 years ago.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Billy Weld's long, strange trip: Bill Weld: A Libertarian Vice Presidential Contender's Journey | National Review

I'd like to get some sleep before I travel, but if you've got a warrant, you might as well come on in.

If anyone gets “frowny-faced” with him, he can always count on Hillary Clinton to have his back.

Read more at: Bill Weld: A Libertarian Vice Presidential Contender's Journey | National Review

I wonder how that's going to work when Hillary gets 'frowny-faced' with him.

Good article, and it raises a whole lot more question that evaded my memory regarding his suitability for office.

 

[steveh_131]

Supposedly, Weld has seen the error of his ways. I just read this quote:

"Today, almost 25 years later, I would make some different choices. Restricting Americans’ gun rights doesn’t make us safer, and threatens our constitutional freedoms. I was pleased by and support the Supreme Court’s decision in the District of Columbia vs. Heller -- a decision that embraced the notion that our Second Amendment rights are individual rights, not to be abridged by the government."

Still not sure Im convinced. (but I wanted to be fair and put all the info out there)

I'm not sure how to feel about this guy. According to CATO, he was rather fiscally conservative. Maybe even more so than Gary Johnson, who is nowhere near as libertarian as I would like.

On the other hand, he voted for Obama in 2008. I appreciate his more recent stance on firearm liberty, but his explanation still leaves me uncertain about his devotion to liberty in general.

I'm not crazy about Johnson either. This election is the worst.

 

[Jludo]

I'm not sure how to feel about this guy. According to CATO, he was rather fiscally conservative. Maybe even more so than Gary Johnson, who is nowhere near as libertarian as I would like.

On the other hand, he voted for Obama in 2008. I appreciate his more recent stance on firearm liberty, but his explanation still leaves me uncertain about his devotion to liberty in general.

I'm not crazy about Johnson either. This election is the worst.

As far as those with governing experience go, though, is Gary not the closest to libertarian?

That's always the rap against say an Austin Peterson, that their brand of libertarianism has never been tried.

 

[steveh_131]

As far as those with governing experience go, though, is Gary not the closest to libertarian?

That's always the rap against say an Austin Peterson, that their brand of libertarianism has never been tried.

Yeah, I guess he's the closest but his record is troubling to me. Even fiscally he's pretty weak.

The 'never been tried' mantra is annoying to me. What, these gigantic overbearing federal agencies have existed since the beginning of time? Mankind has never survived without them?

It's just silly.

 

[Jludo]

Yeah, I guess he's the closest but his record is troubling to me. Even fiscally he's pretty weak.

The 'never been tried' mantra is annoying to me. What, these gigantic overbearing federal agencies have existed since the beginning of time? Mankind has never survived without them?

It's just silly.

I think that's the turning the oil tanker around analogy. We just need to start the process of shrinking government, just to head in that direction would be a world if change.

 

[steveh_131]

Shoot, just starting the process of stopping its expansion would be a world of change!

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Yeah, I guess he's the closest but his record is troubling to me. Even fiscally he's pretty weak.

The 'never been tried' mantra is annoying to me. What, these gigantic overbearing federal agencies have existed since the beginning of time? Mankind has never survived without them?

It's just silly.

I think that's the turning the oil tanker around analogy. We just need to start the process of shrinking government, just to head in that direction would be a world if change.

Shoot, just starting the process of stopping its expansion would be a world of change!

Even if a "true-blue Libertarian" (if there is such a creature) were somehow to be elected President, he wouldn't have the political clout in Washington to get a handle on the federal bureaucracy OR the federal budget - except perhaps by vetoing every spending bill he didn't agree with. (And I'd be okay with that.) I think the same is true for an "outsider" like Trump - without a strong base in the Republican Party, he, if elected, is unlikely to be able to do everything (or even most things) he's said he's going to do.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It's looking like #NeverJohnson might be a thing.

Johnson is a lazy mix of a liberal and a conservative, but not a libertarian.

The opportunity we have this year is unfathomable. Both major party candidates are so disliked that we have a chance to put a huge dent in this corrupt two party system.

I bet they still wind up nominating Johnson.

An Open Letter to Libertarian Delegates ? Freedom Gulch