Juice: Power And The Power Grid Discussions And Info…

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Study finds California’s semi truck electrification comes with enormous costs that hit consumers

Powering the nation’s long-haul trucks with electricity would require the same amount of electricity for more than 46 million homes every year.

justthenews.com

I was told on INGO that they have the right to use the power they want…

Kind of like bicyclists and the roadway…

 

[Ingomike]

Kind of like bicyclists and the roadway…

They do and they don’t. Clear as mud…

Call the cops and tell them there is a guy riding a bicycle on the road and you don’t think he has the right to be there. Conversely start using max electric power 24/7 and see what happens. There is no law guaranteeing unlimited power on demand but there is a law recognizing bikes on the road…

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Every time it gets hot or cold, they run an article. Have since Uri- don't trust the media, remember? It's just a recycled story.

MISO hasn't had an EEA event in any of those. No load shed. No public appeals. I had a Generac before I moved to Carmel. I actually lived in San Diego in 2011 during the SW blackout, it makes you paranoid. I haven't needed one here. We aren't too outage-prone where I am.

Our plant, for several years, participated in the PowerShare program. For those that don’t know PowerShare is a program through Duke and is (IIRC) controlled via MISO. It is a voluntary program that basically puts its participants at the top of the list for shedding load when a grid problem (in MISO) occurs.

We participated from before 2014 through last year. We finally dropped out because the numbers of voluntary load sheds was increasing and the spector of mandatory, emergency load sheds had significantly in the last 3-4 years. Until 2022 (?) we never got a call for an emergency load shed…and the only reason we didn’t have to then was because of the extensive shutdown time in our contract would have exceeded the event.

Duke will tell you the margins are shrinking.

 

[Ingomike]

Our plant, for several years, participated in the PowerShare program. For those that don’t know PowerShare is a program through Duke and is (IIRC) controlled via MISO. It is a voluntary program that basically puts its participants at the top of the list for shedding load when a grid problem (in MISO) occurs.

We participated from before 2014 through last year. We finally dropped out because the numbers of voluntary load sheds was increasing and the spector of mandatory, emergency load sheds had significantly in the last 3-4 years. Until 2022 (?) we never got a call for an emergency load shed…and the only reason we didn’t have to then was because of the extensive shutdown time in our contract would have exceeded the event.

Duke will tell you the margins are shrinking.

I hear similar from my contacts in the industry…

 

[HKFaninCarmel]

Our plant, for several years, participated in the PowerShare program. For those that don’t know PowerShare is a program through Duke and is (IIRC) controlled via MISO. It is a voluntary program that basically puts its participants at the top of the list for shedding load when a grid problem (in MISO) occurs.

We participated from before 2014 through last year. We finally dropped out because the numbers of voluntary load sheds was increasing and the spector of mandatory, emergency load sheds had significantly in the last 3-4 years. Until 2022 (?) we never got a call for an emergency load shed…and the only reason we didn’t have to then was because of the extensive shutdown time in our contract would have exceeded the event.

Duke will tell you the margins are shrinking.

MISO is not driving demand response programs, so MISO is not driving it.

 

[foszoe]

Our plant, for several years, participated in the PowerShare program. For those that don’t know PowerShare is a program through Duke and is (IIRC) controlled via MISO. It is a voluntary program that basically puts its participants at the top of the list for shedding load when a grid problem (in MISO) occurs.

We participated from before 2014 through last year. We finally dropped out because the numbers of voluntary load sheds was increasing and the spector of mandatory, emergency load sheds had significantly in the last 3-4 years. Until 2022 (?) we never got a call for an emergency load shed…and the only reason we didn’t have to then was because of the extensive shutdown time in our contract would have exceeded the event.

Duke will tell you the margins are shrinking.

Load shed and interruptible load contracts are 2 different things.

One is emergency one is economic contract.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Load shed and interruptible load contracts are 2 different things.

One is emergency one is economic contract.

Not sure about the nuances of the definitions of the terms. But the PowerShare program consisted of an economic part and an emergency part.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

MISO is not driving demand response programs, so MISO is not driving it.

They dictate the terms for participation in the PowerShare program.

 

[snorko]

We are going to see a lot more of this in the future:

A $7B power line from Kansas to Indiana moves closer to reality​

A $7B power line from Kansas to Indiana moves closer to reality

The Grain Belt Express is an example of what’s required to carry clean power from where it’s plentiful to where it’s needed. Now, it’s almost ready to be built.

www.canarymedia.com

 

[foszoe]

They dictate the terms for participation in the PowerShare program.

I very much doubt it.

You signed an agreement with Duke not MISO.

MISO sets the terms of a market. Generators offer to generate at a price. Loads bid to buy electricity to serve load.

The market clears when Loads buy all the generation to serve that load.

Now a load serving entity may say if the price of electricity is above xxx then I would rater not serve my load. So they get customers to sign up to have their power turned off during peak hours. Those are called load modifying resources. Price goes high, LSE deploys LMRs.

That is not a result of a power shortage. It's a market mechanism.

Now they may claim MISO told them to, but it's all a price signal. If they didn't offer it to MISO, MISO or ERCOT or PJM or SPP. or CAISO could not do anything.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I very much doubt it.

You signed an agreement with Duke not MISO.

MISO sets the terms of a market. Generators offer to generate at a price. Loads bid to buy electricity to serve load.

The market clears when Loads buy all the generation to serve that load.

Now a load serving entity may say if the price of electricity is above xxx then I would rater not serve my load. So they get customers to sign up to have their power turned off during peak hours. Those are called load modifying resources. Price goes high, LSE deploys LMRs.

That is not a result of a power shortage. It's a market mechanism.

Now they may claim MISO told them to, but it's all a price signal. If they didn't offer it to MISO, MISO or ERCOT or PJM or SPP. or CAISO could not do anything.

OK

 

[foszoe]

Not sure about the nuances of the definitions of the terms. But the PowerShare program consisted of an economic part and an emergency part.

PowerShare - Business - Duke Energy

Get incentives for reducing your business’s energy use during peak demand periods. Learn more about Power Share from Duke Energy.

www.duke-energy.com

Loading…

www.duke-energy.com

First paragraph of PDF 2nd page. Word is voluntary

the old addage nothing is free. The monthly credits are in return for being interrupted later

I can't type on phone coherently...or the computer!

Anyway the utilities like to "blame" someone else so they don't look bad.

When AEP turns off power they blame PJM. MISO gets the blame when DUKE does, but these types of programs are voluntary.

If its a program you can opt into or out of to dave money its not an emergency ad defined by NERC.

Were you a residential or business participant?

 

[Keith_Indy]

Our infrastructure is not robust or secure…

GRID DOWN, POWER UP

Grid Down, Power Up investigates and follows the trail of information surrounding threats that the US national power grid faces right now.

griddownpowerup.com

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

PowerShare - Business - Duke Energy

Get incentives for reducing your business’s energy use during peak demand periods. Learn more about Power Share from Duke Energy.

www.duke-energy.com

Loading…

www.duke-energy.com

First paragraph of PDF 2nd page. Word is voluntary

the old addage nothing is free. The monthly credits are in return for being interrupted later

I can't type on phone coherently...or the computer!

Anyway the utilities like to "blame" someone else so they don't look bad.

When AEP turns off power they blame PJM. MISO gets the blame when DUKE does, but these types of programs are voluntary.

If its a program you can opt into or out of to dave money its not an emergency ad defined by NERC.

Were you a residential or business participant?

OK…you win…whatever this is.

 

[Cynical]

THIS.

Plus an engineer I know at AES said that at least in Indy, the average density neighborhood can only support roughly 10-20% of the houses on the street installing rapid charge EV chargers before current delivery maxes out.

I'll also add that my brother is a meter tech for the utility company and he attended a three day seminar that focused on this very problem. Transformers would need to be up sized even parking garages that were designed to hold x amount of weight based on current vehicle averages, not the massively heavy EVs. There will be alot of unintended consequences.

 

[foszoe]

OK…you win…whatever this is.

Wow!

I won!

I wasn't even trying to win!

I didn't even get a prize

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Wow!

I won!

I wasn't even trying to win!

I didn't even get a prize

Cookies are on the way.

 

[foszoe]

Cookies are on the way.

My browser ate them!

 

[mbkintner]

Cookies are on the way.

Cookies! Will these be pre or post shrinkflation cookies?

 

[HKFaninCarmel]

I very much doubt it.

You signed an agreement with Duke not MISO.

MISO sets the terms of a market. Generators offer to generate at a price. Loads bid to buy electricity to serve load.

The market clears when Loads buy all the generation to serve that load.

Now a load serving entity may say if the price of electricity is above xxx then I would rater not serve my load. So they get customers to sign up to have their power turned off during peak hours. Those are called load modifying resources. Price goes high, LSE deploys LMRs.

That is not a result of a power shortage. It's a market mechanism.

Now they may claim MISO told them to, but it's all a price signal. If they didn't offer it to MISO, MISO or ERCOT or PJM or SPP. or CAISO could not do anything.

I suspect our line of work is similar…