Legit AD on a Holstered SIG 320 on video

[breakingcontact]

Sorry Sig fanboys. It's a bad design.

I like Sigs...but not the 320.

 

[breakingcontact]

I k ow several makes of guns have had ADs when the user have used them with WML holsters both with and without a light attached. The opening needed for the light to fit (depending on make) looks like a LG mouth base on some.

I agree this is an issue as well. I like the holster to fit snug on the triggerguard which is why I don't carry a WML.

 

[breakingcontact]

So my local Sig armorer and I were messing around with it after the last batch of OOB discharges. He was at a match were one happened. On all of our 320's you can push the slide back about 1/8 of am inch and still get the trigger to break. This is about where the hood and barrel start to unlock. We could not for sure determine that this would for sure cause an OOB discharge but it sure looks possible. If you take Walthers and Glocks which is what we had on hand to compare it to, they move only about .03-.04" before deactivating the trigger.

Edited to add. For what it is worth. My guy is a big Sig fan and a big Bruce Gray fan so when Bruce Gray said this was not possible, he believed it, until he saw it happen for himself at a match.

I realize this proves nothing, especially to Sig fans, but it has sure had me contemplating whether or not to keep using my 320s in matches.

I almost forgot about Bruce Bray. Yeah...good to not have gurus.

 

[WebSnyper]

The P365 breaking firing pins non stop until youtube reviewers got them to do a second generation to solve the problem, and none of the guns carry a mark signifying they're part of the fixed guns.

The MCX has gone through more of these kind of changes than I can possibly ever hope to list out. The MPX has had enormous rolling changes that totally alter the gun's value and reliability, with no changes to the naming to make customers aware of the generation.

There's a lot of them.

As for stacking tolerances, it's easy to jack up a trigger and safety system as a manufacturer and end up with the issues remmy 700s had at that scale.

Agreed, continuous improvement can be a good thing, but the lack of clear generations and indicators of what parts work with what other parts makes things difficult on many levels. One of my biggest peeves with Sig.

If SA pulls off the modularity thing well without some big issues of their own and introduces some good compact versions of the Echelon, I may have to make a jump.

 

[Creedmoor]

The P365 breaking firing pins non stop until youtube reviewers got them to do a second generation to solve the problem, and none of the guns carry a mark signifying they're part of the fixed guns.

The MCX has gone through more of these kind of changes than I can possibly ever hope to list out. The MPX has had enormous rolling changes that totally alter the gun's value and reliability, with no changes to the naming to make customers aware of the generation.

There's a lot of them.

As for stacking tolerances, it's easy to jack up a trigger and safety system as a manufacturer and end up with the issues remmy 700s had at that scale.

Well, My understanding with the 365 is, at 6 months out Sig had a fix and did a voluntary recall.
That problem as I see it now was taken care of in a timely fashion.
Teething happens with all manufacturing.

As for marks or stamps added to others property? I'm not good with that myself.

I have sent a few guns in to the manufactures over my life, and none have come home with any extra manufacturing marks. I have sent a few 3 screw Rugers back for the upgrades,
no extra marks and the old parts were returned.
But im certain all of them are in Rugers data base of upgraded flat tops.

The MCX, I will simply say to someone thats going to buy any Piston AR, Caveat Emptor.
The MPX I have no knowledge of.
I own a bunch of old and newer 700's, never had a problem with any of them.

Stacking Tolerances, Have you ever spent time in a manufacturing Plant?
Have you worked around different ISO's?

 

[WebSnyper]

Well, My understanding with the 365 is, at 6 months out Sig had a fix and did a voluntary recall.
That problem as I see it now was taken care of in a timely fashion.
Teething happens with all manufacturing.

As for marks or stamps added to others property? I'm not good with that myself.

I have sent a few guns in to the manufactures over my life, and none have come home with any extra manufacturing marks. I have sent a few 3 screw Rugers back for the upgrades,
no extra marks and the old parts were returned.
But im certain all of them are in Rugers data base of upgraded flat tops.

The MCX, I will simply say to someone thats going to buy any Piston AR, Caveat Emptor.
The MPX I have no knowledge of.
I own a bunch of old and newer 700's, never had a problem with any of them.

Stacking Tolerances, Have you ever spent time in a manufacturing Plant?
Have you worked around different ISO's?

There's various versions of 365s running around with different extractors that work with certain slides, per this there are apparently some designating marks: https://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/kit-365-extractor

There were various striker versions on 365s. Not sure I ever heard of a voluntary recall on them, as you mention.

There are also various "generations" of MPX: https://www.realgunreviews.com/sig-mpx-faq-video-analysis/

And there were mpx exchange kits, etc and different/varying info given out to gen 1 owners etc.

This doesn't include the various different optic cuts on various "gens" of the same model 320's without clear info on what slides have what. Also similar with recoil spring assemblies, etc.

Modularity is great, as is continuous improvement, but being able to understand what will work with what is a key component of that.

 

[92FSTech]

The P365 breaking firing pins non stop until youtube reviewers got them to do a second generation to solve the problem, and none of the guns carry a mark signifying they're part of the fixed guns.

The MCX has gone through more of these kind of changes than I can possibly ever hope to list out. The MPX has had enormous rolling changes that totally alter the gun's value and reliability, with no changes to the naming to make customers aware of the generation.

There's a lot of them.

As for stacking tolerances, it's easy to jack up a trigger and safety system as a manufacturer and end up with the issues remmy 700s had at that scale.

This is definitely a legitimate problem. When I went through the P365 armorer course, the instructor (who was a Sig employee, not an adjunct) had to call back to the office to figure out how to remove the slide plate to get the striker assembly out of the gun, because the guns they'd sent us for the class were different than the ones he'd been trained on.

I'm all for continuous improvements, but any changes need to be clearly documented and publicly published so that you know what variant of the gun you're looking at.

 

[Creedmoor]

Sorry Sig fanboys. It's a bad design.

I like Sigs...but not the 320.

Why is it a bad design, show your work.

 

[WebSnyper]

This is definitely a legitimate problem. When I went through the P365 armorer course, the instructor (who was a Sig employee, not an adjunct) had to call back to the office to figure out how to remove the slide plate to get the striker assembly out of the gun, because the guns they'd sent us for the class were different than the ones he'd been trained on.

I'm all for continuous improvements, but any changes need to be clearly documented and publicly published so that you know what variant of the gun you're looking at.

Yep, forgot about the slide plates but remember reading a bit about it, now that you mention.

 

[AlienRayGun]

Why is it a bad design, show your work.

Nobody has sold me their exploding P320 yet ;((

Honestly thought as deadly as they are, a dozen people would want to sell their gun to me.

 

[breakingcontact]

I like many Sig models, that are proven.

If the general "we" keep defending companies that have turned bad, producing questionable, if not downright unsafe "innovative" products, they are going to turn even worse.

Stop defending your favorite brand and favorite guru(s) within that brand.

Things change over time, perhaps they can get back to the quality they were once known for.

Cheers.

 

[92FSTech]

Stop defending your favorite brand and favorite guru(s) within that brand.

I don't think that's what's happening in this thread at all. There are at least several of us here who are open to believing there is a flaw in the design...if somebody can demonstrate what that flaw is.

Anybody can say "It's a bad design." But it gives your statement credibility and makes it useful if you can show the reason why. That's what Creedmoor is asking you to do.

I try to make my decisions based on actual facts that I can verify for myself, not just unsupported comments on the Internet.

 

[AlienRayGun]

Anybody can say "It's a bad design." But it gives your statement credibility and makes it useful if you can show the reason why. That's what Creedmoor is asking you to do.

I wonder how many P320 haters also condemn glasses that break when dropped.

Or a lawn mower that fragments when it hits a boulder.

Your McLaren didn't enjoy ingesting salt water? Must be a design flaw.

 

[92FSTech]

The drop safety issue was a legitimate, repeatable mechanical problem with the gun. But Sig did right by our agency and me as an individual on that one, and I have no complaints. That process was easy and relatively quick, and cost me nothing. And it fixed the issue. I know of no-one who has been able to demonstrate that the upgraded guns will discharge when dropped, although I'm sure many have tried.

 

[cedartop]

 

[Tombs]

This is definitely a legitimate problem. When I went through the P365 armorer course, the instructor (who was a Sig employee, not an adjunct) had to call back to the office to figure out how to remove the slide plate to get the striker assembly out of the gun, because the guns they'd sent us for the class were different than the ones he'd been trained on.

I'm all for continuous improvements, but any changes need to be clearly documented and publicly published so that you know what variant of the gun you're looking at.

This is why even though there were an incredible number of improvements to the beretta 92, service M9 pistols had to stick to the original TDP.

Sometimes an improvement isn't worth the headaches it brings. At least beretta is competent enough to make everything backwards and forwards compatible.

 

[Tombs]

Anybody can say "It's a bad design." But it gives your statement credibility and makes it useful if you can show the reason why. That's what Creedmoor is asking you to do.

I've already said, it needs a trigger dingus. Reason being is it's possible for a trigger to pull its self due to inertia alone, which is why the trigger dingus is prevalent.

The incredible hesitation to do so gives me pause to ever consider a sig product.

 

[Creedmoor]

I've already said, it needs a trigger dingus. Reason being is it's possible for a trigger to pull its self due to inertia alone, which is why the trigger dingus is prevalent.

The incredible hesitation to do so gives me pause to ever consider a sig product.

Again you still haven't shown your work...
Have you applied for either of those jobs at Sig Sauer?

 

[Creedmoor]

This is why even though there were an incredible number of improvements to the beretta 92, service M9 pistols had to stick to the original TDP.

Sometimes an improvement isn't worth the headaches it brings. At least beretta is competent enough to make everything backwards and forwards compatible.

Are you saying no heavy M9 never had any hard upgrades over its life?

 

[Creedmoor]

This is why even though there were an incredible number of improvements to the beretta 92, service M9 pistols had to stick to the original TDP.

Sometimes an improvement isn't worth the headaches it brings. At least beretta is competent enough to make everything backwards and forwards compatible.

So why when the M9 upgrades to a M3 did they get new, more user friendly slides on them?

Oh yea,
Universal slide, which makes the gun convertible from decocker-safety to decocker-only mode.

And why the magazine upgrade if it all was working well.

Sand-resistant magazine with beveled shape for blind reloading.