Licensed gun owner aids Illinois cops in shootout with suspect; 1 officer injure

[Expat]

Is there any protection from civil suits in a case like this? I see that Illinois does not have a Stand your Ground Law. Would such a law protect you in a case like this in Indiana?

 

[actaeon277]

Is there any protection from civil suits in a case like this? I see that Illinois does not have a Stand your Ground Law. Would such a law protect you in a case like this in Indiana?

Do they have a "duty to retreat".
Cause if they don't, it's the same thing.

 

[Expat]

From the Illinois Public Safety website:

Illinois does not have a Stand Your Ground law. While a person may use deadly force in self-defense with no duty to retreat, this rule has been created by past judicial decisions and may only be raised during a prosecution as an affirmative defense. Illinois has none of the immunity laws, pre-trial hearings, or other negative public safety provisions that characterize a true Stand Your Ground law.

If there are no immunity laws, I assume the guy can get sued there.

 

[actaeon277]

From the Illinois Public Safety website:


If there are no immunity laws, I assume the guy can get sued there.

We have "immunity laws" and that doesn't stop it from happening.

 

[Expat]

We have "immunity laws" and that doesn't stop it from happening.

I just read through the Indiana law it would appear we should be protected here.

 

[actaeon277]

I just read through the Indiana law it would appear we should be protected here.

Don't we have a woman right now being sued for helping a police officer?
There's a go-fund-me right now because the police officer's defense comes from either the department or the union, but the lady needed lawyer fees.

 

[actaeon277]

https://www.wlwt.com/article/woman-sued-after-shooting-man-in-fight-with-indiana-officer/19843786
Woman sued after shooting man in fight with Indiana officer


Family sues woman who came to officer's aid in fatal Indiana shooting
Family sues woman who came to officer's aid in fatal Indiana shooting


gofundme
https://www.gofundme.com/kystie039s-best-defense

 

[Expat]

Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

Do the courts not consider civil suit as legal jeopardy then?

 

[actaeon277]

Do the courts not consider civil suit as legal jeopardy then?

maybe you'd have to ask an INGO lawyer.


Lot of people mad about that one, and think the law should apply.
But.. other people think you have to go to court to prove the law applies.
Or like you said, civil and criminal are often separate beasts.

We have a thread on it somewhere.

 

[actaeon277]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-firearms-discussion/432069-good-gal-gun.html

Good gal with a gun

ISP: Woman fatally shoots man who was fighting with conservation officer | Fox 59​

 

[Expat]

Thanks. I would hate to get bankrupted proving the law applies to me...

 

[actaeon277]

It sucks that there is a law, and then people think it doesn't apply, and then you spend your $$$ anyway.

The gofundme for the young lady defending the officer in the thread I quoted, was set up by the officer for her (I think).

 

[BehindBlueI's]

And here we go. You'll be mistaken as another bad guy.

And you might be. Off duty/plain clothes cops have been killed or injured in this exact scenario.

 

[actaeon277]

It's possible.
But I'll also have to live with myself knowing I might have done something, and didn't.

 

[2A_Tom]

Is there any protection from civil suits in a case like this? I see that Illinois does not have a Stand your Ground Law. Would such a law protect you in a case like this in Indiana?

I would ask my lawyer to include common law "hew and cry" as a positive defense. I don't know if it has been tested or not.

We have "immunity laws" and that doesn't stop it from happening.

IC states that we have a right to self defense, which should give us protection in criminal law cases, but gives no immunity to civil prosecution. You can sue anyone for anything and at that point it may well bankrupt you.

And you might be. Off duty/plain clothes cops have been killed or injured in this exact scenario.

You are correct, but it doesn't usually happen. That would be the anomaly. There was also a homeowner recently when the police responded and he had a gun. It can happen, but it is anecdotal.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It can happen, but it is anecdotal.

Right. And if you're one of the 'anecdotes' you probably won't enjoy it. The important part is the first part, it can happen. There are steps you can take to minimize the risk.

https://www.policeone.com/gun-legis...e-When-the-armed-citizen-is-in-the-crossfire/

 

[lonehoosier]

Right. And if you're one of the 'anecdotes' you probably won't enjoy it. The important part is the first part, it can happen. There are steps you can take to minimize the risk.

https://www.policeone.com/gun-legis...e-When-the-armed-citizen-is-in-the-crossfire/

Good read, thanks for sharing BB.

The two big take aways from the article.

[FONT=&quot]“Taking a moment to survey the scene, preferably from cover, can help enhance decision-making by observing what actors are involved as suspects, witnesses, or victims. [/FONT]Behaviors of gun carriers[FONT=&quot] who are ready to reach or trying to keep the gun from falling out are different from others in the crowd.”

A lot can happen if you delay for a second or two. How do you balance that as LEO.


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Keeping commands simple and consistent with other officers at the scene can avoid confusion. If one suspect hears the command to “drop it” or “get on the ground” from Officer A and “don’t move” from Officer B, the suspect will delay complying while both officers perceive non-compliance.”

We’ve all seen these videos of multiple LEO shouting out to a person, this really needs to be addressed in training. [/FONT]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Keeping commands simple and consistent with other officers at the scene can avoid confusion. If one suspect hears the command to “drop it” or “get on the ground” from Officer A and “don’t move” from Officer B, the suspect will delay complying while both officers perceive non-compliance.”

We’ve all seen these videos of multiple LEO shouting out to a person, this really needs to be addressed in training. [/FONT]

At least on IMPD, we do address it via training. Since making sergeant, I've been on two situations where the suspect had just fired shots at someone. One was contained and we were just going to hold for SWAT. The other was in the open and we were going to do a take down. In both situations I designated one officer to be the only one giving voice commands. It reduces the confusion on the other end, and it also frees up the other officers mental tasking to do other things. If I'm running the show, I'm never going to be the talker since talking and listening takes up more computing power then you'd think.

I'd also set the default verbal command to "don't move" since it applies in basically any situation, once things slow down and the person is compliant you can get into specifics of disarming them, moving them, etc.

 

[actaeon277]

At least on IMPD, we do address it via training. Since making sergeant, I've been on two situations where the suspect had just fired shots at someone. One was contained and we were just going to hold for SWAT. The other was in the open and we were going to do a take down. In both situations I designated one officer to be the only one giving voice commands. It reduces the confusion on the other end, and it also frees up the other officers mental tasking to do other things. If I'm running the show, I'm never going to be the talker since talking and listening takes up more computing power then you'd think.

I'd also set the default verbal command to "don't move" since it applies in basically any situation, once things slow down and the person is compliant you can get into specifics of disarming them, moving them, etc.

 

[2A_Tom]

My favorite line,

[FONT=&quot]Can an officer make more accurate decisions in the new wild-west environment with so many good guys with guns? They’ll have to.[/FONT]