Long Range Shooting School

[shootinghoosier]

Has anyone attended a long range shooting school at Wolf Precision in Johnstown, PA? http://www.wolfprecision.net/20401.html

Pretty reasonable price for the course. Just wasn't sure about their reputation.

 

[rhino]

For what it's worth, I've never heard of the school or the owner. That doesn't mean he's not first rate, but I've not read or hear anything about him.

 

[cedartop]

For what it's worth, I've never heard of the school or the owner. That doesn't mean he's not first rate, but I've not read or hear anything about him.

Same here.

 

[42769vette]

For what it's worth, I've never heard of the school or the owner. That doesn't mean he's not first rate, but I've not read or hear anything about him.

same here

 

[grizman]

I read through the little Bio deal and see nothing in his back ground indicating any military sniper training. LE snipers don't normally go beyond 400 yards in training.

 

[sloughfoot]

Do any of you guys read the magazine, Precision Shooter? These guys are well known in the 1000 yard bench rest community. They hold their championships at their range

Believe it or not, there is a whole world of shooting outside of the "sniper" world.. lots to learn from these guys if you are willing...

 

[USMC_0311]

Do any of you guys read the magazine, Precision Shooter? These guys are well known in the 1000 yard bench rest community. They hold their championships at their range

Believe it or not, there is a whole world of shooting outside of the "sniper" world.. lots to learn from these guys if you are willing...

+1 to this. Plenty of learning opportunities on the line right here in Indiana or your could just join the Marines, go to Scout Sniper School for free

 

[42769vette]

i only made it to one cihprs shoot last summer. it was defintally a learning, humbling experiance.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

I read through the little Bio deal and see nothing in his back ground indicating any military sniper training. LE snipers don't normally go beyond 400 yards in training.

I almost see this as a positive. I am not bashing military or LE shooting systems, but if we trace back where innovations in technique and equipment come from, we will always end up in the civilian sector. Competition drives innovation. The private sector has made advances in technique and equipment purely because they want to. Recreational shooters have demanded more from gunmakers and they have responded with better gear. Recreational shooters have pushed the limits to find more consistent and accurate technique, because it is a hobby, an interest of love. Military and LE trainers arent making up new gear and techniques, they are learning them from the premier competitors of the world and applying to their needs.

If this school does have a basis in benchrest, they are gonna make any military sniper school look like the boy scouts, from the shooting perspective anyways.

 

[grizman]

I almost see this as a positive. I am not bashing military or LE shooting systems, but if we trace back where innovations in technique and equipment come from, we will always end up in the civilian sector. Competition drives innovation. The private sector has made advances in technique and equipment purely because they want to. Recreational shooters have demanded more from gunmakers and they have responded with better gear. Recreational shooters have pushed the limits to find more consistent and accurate technique, because it is a hobby, an interest of love. Military and LE trainers aren't making up new gear and techniques, they are learning them from the premier competitors of the world and applying to their needs.

If this school does have a basis in bench rest, they are gonna make any military sniper school look like the boy scouts, from the shooting perspective anyways.

That hasen't happened yet and I shoot some BR for the fun of it! I shoot a stock Remington 700 XCR, Federal gold medal match 190 grn 300WM with a Niteforce 8-32 X 56 NXS glass against guys with rifles that cost many times what mine does!
This part maybe offensive to some. so I apologize ahead of time, what we are ultimately talking about is killing someone at long range if necessary. Lets just lay the cards out so to speak! I during my military career accumulated 37 confirmed kills and 24 unconfirmed kills with .308, .300WM and 50BMG rifles, at distances from 500M to 2000M. Day, night wind,rain,snow,hot,cold leaches and bugs crawling in and out of my BDU's. I have spent days crawling on my belly through stuff most wouldn't walk through in chest waders! Have rolled around in animal crap to hide my human odor from patrols with dogs! Just to get to a designated position to kill a stranger from X meters to find that there is not a good hide or even a position to lay full prone in order to make the shot!
Then when round hits home and all h*ll breaks lose and you become the hunted! I have watched the life fade from a mans eyes from my knife plunging through his heart. I have taken life with my bare hands! Do not ever attempt to tell me that some fair weather BR shooter can make me or any military sniper look like a flippen boy scout in the shooting skills area. LMAO

As far as who advances or developes what. The military normally drives the devlopement of weapons advances and tactical techniques that filter there way into civy life from retired or ex military people. Not the other way around sorry.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

Then why have various military units hired Jerry Barnhart and Todd Jarrett to teach them pistol shooting?
Why did the AMU acquire Max Michel, Travis Tomasie, Daniel Horner, Robbie Johnson and KC Eusabio?
Why did Federal start making Gold Medal MATCH ammuntion?

This is not a dig on military performance at all, but having been in the military does not automatically make you a great shooter or instructor, you may be a great shooter or instructor, but having been in the military is not an automatic certification.

Also, the class in question is about a long range shooting school, not a "sniper" class and those are different things. The 1000 yd benchrest community is the one best suited to long range shooting, as they are posting better results than any other, as it pertains to long range shooting.

The military has a long history of using top competitors to explore what works best for any given shooting discipline, as well they should. They are simply using the resources available, rather than trying to invent the wheel on their own.

Also note that I responded to your post without an insulting icon, as I respect your opinion

 

[grizman]

Then why have various military units hired Jerry Barnhart and Todd Jarrett to teach them pistol shooting?
Why did the AMU acquire Max Michel, Travis Tomasie, Daniel Horner, Robbie Johnson and KC Eusabio?
Why did Federal start making Gold Medal MATCH ammuntion?

This is not a dig on military performance at all, but having been in the military does not automatically make you a great shooter or instructor, you may be a great shooter or instructor, but having been in the military is not an automatic certification.

Also, the class in question is about a long range shooting school, not a "sniper" class and those are different things. The 1000 yd benchrest community is the one best suited to long range shooting, as they are posting better results than any other, as it pertains to long range shooting.

The military has a long history of using top competitors to explore what works best for any given shooting discipline, as well they should. They are simply using the resources available, rather than trying to invent the wheel on their own.

Also note that I responded to your post without an insulting icon, as I respect your opinion

I apologize! They utilize some civy contractors to further the mechanics of certain aspects to the military instructors. They do not however simply adopt and entire discipline verbatim from any single source. The military always puts their own spin on any new tactics. The only weapons the military uses from the civy sector are bolt rifles and shotguns built to there specs not civy specs. Even the 1911 was a result of the military not the civy market. Just like Glocks exist thanks to the Austrian military not the civy market. The current Beretta M9 or 92fs was developed for the Italian military first. Lake City arsenal had "special long range" ammo decades before any of civy brands produced it. Match ammo derived from military sniper ammo not the other way around. FYI Federal Gold Medal Match is produced in the old Lake City arsenal bought by federal from the DOD.
My point is that military snipers are trained to shoot at distances longer than the BR guys with lets say lesser equipment but we still get the job done. A military sniper has the ability to do anything a BR shooter can with the same rifle if he has the desire. Not saying there aren't any top shelf civy shooters just saying the are not in a class above the military top shelf shooters. Having seen both disciplines from the inside I still give the edge to the military sniper for the mental aspects and other additional skills in any other situation but punching paper or banging steel. Long range target shooting skills,mechanics and mathematics in voled in POA corrections are the same no matter which discipline you follow.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

A military sniper has the ability to do anything a BR shooter can with the same rifle if he has the desire.

Then why dont military snipers show up to matches and take away all that easy prize money? I am sure someone would loan them guns and ammo.

 

[grizman]

Then why don't military snipers show up to matches and take away all that easy prize money? I am sure someone would loan them guns and ammo.

I would say for most it not that they couldn't they just don't desire to compete. Military snipers are not around in great numbers to begin with and a high percentage of them don't love to shoot. Skill and desire do not always go hand in hand. When I go for the fun and challenge I do not go in in BDU/ACU's or spec op'ed out. I go in as a guy who loves to shoot that is all. I know quite a few ex snipers that won't touch a rifle! Some guys can't deal with the reality of what they did under orders any other way than to avoid any similar activities.

I can not say with certainty why most don't shoot competitively for money, I do not because I have nothing to prove to myself. I also feel I have an unfair advantage due to my exp and training over most of the self taught competitors. Some may and they don't make their background public.

 

[slow1911s]

As far as who advances or developes what. The military normally drives the devlopement of weapons advances and tactical techniques that filter there way into civy life from retired or ex military people. Not the other way around sorry.

Tactical techniques - I agree. Shooting performance, actually pulling the trigger, is coming from the competition world. If not, why did/does USSOCOM employ Rob Leatham? Or Jerry Barnhart? Or Todd Jarrett? Why do they staff an action shooting team on the AMU who cut their competition teeth before enlisting in the service (Robbie Johnson notwithstanding - he learned while in the service from the AMU). Why does the AMU and Fort Benning sponsor one of the biggest multi-gun matches on the planet? Because they're trying to recruit the 30-, 40-, and 50-somethings that finish in the top-10 there? Or, because they're trying to learn a thing or two about shooting fast and accurately?

One example (pg 44) that supports this premise: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA436524

The fact that the AMU team had to go to civilian and SF courses for additional
tactical training is an indicator of the inadequacies of the current small arms training
doctrine in the Army. I am in no way suggesting that the AMU shooters are not proficient
marksmen, simply pointing out the lack of established POI. I have personally competed
against members of this team and can attest that they are world-class shooters. Members
of this team regularly win or place high in international and national competitions. At the
2004 IPSC National Championships, a combat oriented match, the team took first and
second place. This additional training and skill level allowed them to put together a POI
in four months that should have been in place in Army doctrine for years and taught
beginning in basic training and reinforced throughout the soldier’s carrier. The course
that AMU pistol team crafted was not intended to train soldiers in preparation for SWAT
team membership. The POI was simply designed to “give students more confidence in
their weapons systems, make them faster and more accurate with those weapons and 45
provide them with the knowledge and means to teach their soldiers these skills” (Gibbs
2004, 1).

Weapons advances? Offset and piggyback red dot sights didn't come from the battlefield. Neither did the use of low-powered variable scopes on carbines. Or free floating handguards. Or..

Back on topic - If you're wanting to learn known distance long-range marksmanship using scoped rifles, you'll learn a lot attending NRA F-Class competitions. Other than the gear and ammo you'd buy anyway, it's a lot less expensive than any intensive school you'd attend. The learning would be spread out over months and years, but it's learning all the same.

 

[grizman]

Tactical techniques - I agree. Shooting performance, actually pulling the trigger, is coming from the competition world. If not, why did/does USSOCOM employ Rob Leatham? Or Jerry Barnhart? Or Todd Jarrett? Why do they staff an action shooting team on the AMU who cut their competition teeth before enlisting in the service (Robbie Johnson notwithstanding - he learned while in the service from the AMU). Why does the AMU and Fort Benning sponsor one of the biggest multi-gun matches on the planet? Because they're trying to recruit the 30-, 40-, and 50-somethings that finish in the top-10 there? Or, because they're trying to learn a thing or two about shooting fast and accurately?

One example (pg 44) that supports this premise: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA436524



Weapons advances? Offset and piggyback red dot sights didn't come from the battlefield. Neither did the use of low-powered variable scopes on carbines. Or free floating handguards. Or..

Back on topic - If you're wanting to learn known distance long-range marksmanship using scoped rifles, you'll learn a lot attending NRA F-Class competitions. Other than the gear and ammo you'd buy anyway, it's a lot less expensive than any intensive school you'd attend. The learning would be spread out over months and years, but it's learning all the same.

The conventional army it stated right in the beginning of the article. I never said any of the advancement from the battlefield or the regular Army!
The SF community had 4x carry handle mounted scopes in the 60's way before the AR was a mainstream civilian rifle. Railed hand guards were pioneered IIRC by KAC for the SEALS. The first red dot sight was developed and used by the SEALS. What we have today evolved from there.

The AMU is the ARMY MARKSMANSHIP UNIT IE the army's competition shooting unit. Not a mission ready combat unit. The Genesis of anything AR is the us military, the Genesis of the M4 carbine is the SF teams. Sorry to say but even the acknowledged father of modern combat shooting that started the organized shooting culture was COL. Jeff Cooper! As in US Army COL. Cooper. Please explain to me again how the civilian market and the competitive shooting crowd drive the development without any military involvement! The weapons, the original optics the forefathers of the sport were all US Military. The people who trained todays modern super star shooters were at one point us military or trained by someone that was. Yes it has grown and evolved but its origins all go back to the military. So regardless it started with the US military.
You mean to tell me the Sig 556, H&K 416, FN SCAR, were the result of the competition community? Flash bangs, body armor, laser sights, tear gas and swat tactics were all LE community developments? No

Competition shooting has given us better scopes, rifles that are more accurate at the cost of reliability and people that have taken the original military combat shooting techniques and honed and polished them but at the same time moved away from the gear used in the military! I see just because the military now has these people come in and teach some shooting mechanics to the AMU it changes the history of the sport around and the us military's role in the sport? What I keep hearing is that the competitive shooting crowd is responsible every weapon and tactical advancement of the US military in the last 50 years. Think about what you are saying, think about where it all began and who started it. Why is it called "combat style competition" did the civilian shooting sport folks invent combat shooting?
Truth is truth the US military is the master of all things combat not some middle aged guy's in funky shorts getting paid to shoot some highly modified weapon at paper and steel targets!
Slap one of those guys in full combat load out gear and see how he does against a Ranger or SEAL through a course of fire. Bet you he looses that blazing super speed and most of his super accuracy.
Why does Ft Benning and the AMU host one of the biggest multi gun matches on the planet? Umm because the the AMU members compete with a home field advantage? and maybe because the range facilities can accommodate the # of people involved! Last but not least its darn good PR for the military. The US military does not suck up to these comp shooters they have people that can watch the tapes of these guys break down their techniques and teach it from there all alone.
PR is the only reason the US military involves these people. Sure has worked on some of you here!

 

[slow1911s]

Why does Ft Benning and the AMU host one of the biggest multi gun matches on the planet? Umm because the the AMU members compete with a home field advantage

Wrong. The action team does not compete at the FB3G. They host it.

I had a longer response typed, but lost it. I can summarize it by saying that many of your statements are flat wrong and many others are drenched in ignorance. Action shooting does not owe itself 100% to the military any more than the current state of military marksmanship owes itself 100% to competition shooters. We both enjoy innovations made by the other side.

I respect you for your service.

 

[grizman]

Wrong. The action team does not compete at the FB3G. They host it.

I had a longer response typed, but lost it. I can summarize it by saying that many of your statements are flat wrong and many others are drenched in ignorance. Action shooting does not owe itself 100% to the military any more than the current state of military marksmanship owes itself 100% to competition shooters. We both enjoy innovations made by the other side.

I respect you for your service.

You need to look carefully before you jump in like this, there is a military division in the competition. Yes I assumed the members of the AMU may have been among those men. I do not follow the circuit as you do it seems. It seems to me the AMU has been around since the late 50's, which pre dates the civy shooting organization, I would have to research it though. What about the CMP program?

HISTORY OF THE CMP. CMP history goes back to late 19th century efforts by U.S. military and political leaders to strengthen our country’s national defense capabilities by improving the rifle marksmanship skills of members of the Armed Forces. The CMP traces its direct lineage to 1903 when Congress and President Theodore Roosevelt established the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice (NBPRP) and the National Matches. From then until 1996, first the Department of War and later the Department of the Army managed the program that became known as the “civilian marksmanship program. During this period, program objectives shifted from military marksmanship to training civilians who might serve in the military to developing youth through marksmanship training. In 1996, Congress acted again to establish the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearm Safety that now governs the CMP.

The NRA was founded by two union Army officers, the founding father of the combat shooting scene was on COl. Jeff Cooper. do a little research and you will see the military connection.
Yet none of this had any effect or influence on the civilian shooting sport scene? I guess it is coincidence then and competitive shooting just developed independently oblivious to the military men and government programs that originated the sport .

Never stated it 100% owed it's existence to the military, only that the originators had US military back grounds. Wrong in your opinion? OK thats your opinion. Ignorance, maybe in your understanding of who, where and why these things originated, My opinion !

 

[USMC_0311]

I know the 2 years I shot with Marine Corps Rifle Team all the civilians were chasing the Marines who were chasing the AMU. (AMU had more money to spend not better shooters.) Both worlds have contributed but I tend to agree with grizman. The AMU is a very competitive unit in most competitions. The national champion from bullseye, high power mostly come from the military with the AMU leading more recently.

If we were talking video games then yes the civilians do drive that market.

 

[slow1911s]

Never stated it 100% owed it's existence to the military, only that the originators had US military back grounds. Wrong in your opinion? OK thats your opinion. Ignorance, maybe in your understanding of who, where and why these things originated, My opinion !

No one is arguing who originated what. The fork in the road came from you getting bent that competitive shooting was having an influence on combat marksmanship. It seems that we agree that competition has had an influence. How much influence and when is a subject of debate.

Who came first? Who cares? What are we doing now - that's what matters. The range isn't the battlefield and I am not confused on that issue, and nearly every shooter I make company with is not confused on that either.

Happy Holidays (This thread has gone straight to hell, by the way. My apologies to the OP.)