Long Range Shooting School

[Mike Elzinga]

This thread is already lost, so, anyone interested in a friendly wager among gentlemen? Though I guess without any real combat scenarios and your "unfair advantage in hyper super tactical awesomeness training" it just never could be fair.

This hypo aggressive arrogance is what gets good cops and soldiers killed, rather than jocking up and just shooting, and know where you stand. I have known a couple SEALS and legit bad mofos and they can be known by the fact that they dont have to advertise. Also kind of a poor showing of the whole "respect and honor" thing that the military tries to promote.

 

[grizman]

This thread is already lost, so, anyone interested in a friendly wager among gentlemen? Though I guess without any real combat scenarios and your "unfair advantage in hyper super tactical awesomeness training" it just never could be fair.

This hypo aggressive arrogance is what gets good cops and soldiers killed, rather than jocking up and just shooting, and know where you stand. I have known a couple SEALS and legit bad mofos and they can be known by the fact that they don't have to advertise. Also kind of a poor showing of the whole "respect and honor" thing that the military tries to promote.

I see you like so many believe that all, "legit bad MOFO's" must never feel the need to speak up. Most do not because we get this type of childish backlash of insult and personal attacks common when dealing with people who are uniformed and erroneously self appointed guardians of the truth. I did no name calling, never attempted to cast doubt or dispersions about anyones back ground or honesty. I can and will argue against anyone who attempts to bash the skills or integrity of any current or former military personal.
You mistake pride for arrogance, you mistake speaking out as a poor showing of respect and honor, any disrespect and lack of honor in this thread is in your post's in this thread Sir. The above quoted thread and this one that started it all!

" I almost see this as a positive. I am not bashing military or LE shooting systems, but if we trace back where innovations in technique and equipment come from, we will always end up in the civilian sector. Competition drives innovation. The private sector has made advances in technique and equipment purely because they want to. Recreational shooters have demanded more from gunmakers and they have responded with better gear. Recreational shooters have pushed the limits to find more consistent and accurate technique, because it is a hobby, an interest of love. Military and LE trainers aren't making up new gear and techniques, they are learning them from the premier competitors of the world and applying to their needs.

If this school does have a basis in benchrest, they are gonna make any military sniper school look like the boy scouts, from the shooting perspective anyways."

You, Sir, are the one guilty of bashing not Me. You are the one without respect and honor. You are the one having a tantrum over the fact you where called out for your disrespect and lack of knowledge. You, Sir, are wrong on all counts!
Now when you read this you will either post up more insults and dispersions about my character and background, further damaging your credibility not mine. Do nothing at all and there by admitting you were wrong. Maybe, although doubtful, step up a be a man and apologies for being insulting and disrespectful. Time for you to "jock" up! We see where you stand.

 

[USMC_0311]

This thread is already lost, so, anyone interested in a friendly wager among gentlemen? Though I guess without any real combat scenarios and your "unfair advantage in hyper super tactical awesomeness training" it just never could be fair.

This hypo aggressive arrogance is what gets good cops and soldiers killed, rather than jocking up and just shooting, and know where you stand. I have known a couple SEALS and legit bad mofos and they can be known by the fact that they dont have to advertise. Also kind of a poor showing of the whole "respect and honor" thing that the military tries to promote.

Wager? Anytime, what did you have in mind? Punching paper? or you are you ready to "jock up?

So you speak from expereince? "hypo aggressive arogance" you a cop? soldier? Seen any die?

What do you know about respect and honor?

 

[gunbunnies]

I thought the OP was looking for a good long range shooting school, not a E&E or Woods craft school... For minute of bad guy tracking and shooting join the Marines... but for long range shooting skills for your weekend injoyment maybe look at the BR competitions or IHSMA or even try the Varmint Hunters Association, been to thier Jamboree in SD before and it's top's on my list....

OK, I'll sit back and keep the popcorn coming...

Carry on gents....

 

[SSGSAD]

grizman, the only flaw I see, is Col. Jeff Cooper, the founder, of GUNSITE, if there is only ONE, was a MARINE Officer, NOT Army..... Semper Fi, thank you for your service, I am sure we are SAFER, thanks to you !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[grizman]

grizman, the only flaw I see, is Col. Jeff Cooper, the founder, of GUNSITE, if there is only ONE, was a MARINE Officer, NOT Army..... Semper Fi, thank you for your service, I am sure we are SAFER, thanks to you !!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks! To me US Military is Military! Only ever said US military not specifically Army. All Servicemen are members of the same brotherhood, yeah we kid and poke fun but when the SHTF its all one team or should be!

 

[SSGSAD]

Thanks! To me US Military is Military! Only ever said US military not specifically Army. All Servicemen are members of the same brotherhood, yeah we kid and poke fun but when the SHTF its all one team or should be!

AMEN, to that, I am MARINE, and ARMY, so I know where you are coming from !!!!!

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Civilian shooters learn to do almost as much as military shooters with twice the gear. I've seen bench rest shooters that needed oxygen after carrying their trash from the car to the bench. After a BR shooter gets set up bump their rifle. It's like the world has imploded. Hell I drag mine through gravel and can pick it up and within a couple shots be back on zero. If I can't I get rid of the weapon.

I'm impressed by someone that can shoot one hole at 300 yards sitting at a bench. I really am. I'm more impressed by someone that can hit a headshot at 500 yards after humping 20 miles with a 100 pound ruck sack and laying in the same place for 2 days. Or that's taking three times the fire they're giving. I'm not impressed at all by someone who bolts a weapon system to a table and pulls the trigger. I don't care how long the shot is.

My hunting buddies put $1K optics on a rifle to take a 50 yard shot on an animal the size of a volkswagon from a tree-based bench rest. The sporting thing to do is stalk the prey on the ground, use open sights and shoot the animal offhand at 300 yards. That's a test of skill.

I guess one of the reasons that you don't see a lot of military shooters in BR is that once you've graduated from college you don't want to go back through the 4th grade. That's not a slam. Just that pulling the trigger on a weapon is so little of the thing.

 

[grizman]

Civilian shooters learn to do almost as much as military shooters with twice the gear. I've seen bench rest shooters that needed oxygen after carrying their trash from the car to the bench. After a BR shooter gets set up bump their rifle. It's like the world has imploded. Hell I drag mine through gravel and can pick it up and within a couple shots be back on zero. If I can't I get rid of the weapon.

I'm impressed by someone that can shoot one hole at 300 yards sitting at a bench. I really am. I'm more impressed by someone that can hit a headshot at 500 yards after humping 20 miles with a 100 pound ruck sack and laying in the same place for 2 days. Or that's taking three times the fire they're giving. I'm not impressed at all by someone who bolts a weapon system to a table and pulls the trigger. I don't care how long the shot is.

My hunting buddies put $1K optics on a rifle to take a 50 yard shot on an animal the size of a volkswagon from a tree-based bench rest. The sporting thing to do is stalk the prey on the ground, use open sights and shoot the animal offhand at 300 yards. That's a test of skill.

I guess one of the reasons that you don't see a lot of military shooters in BR is that once you've graduated from college you don't want to go back through the 4th grade. That's not a slam. Just that pulling the trigger on a weapon is so little of the thing.

OUTSTANDING!! HOOAH!(Army)/OOHRAH(Marines)/HOOYAH(USN) almost forgot H*LL YEAH(Redneck)

 

[gunbunnies]

Being fair and impartial to wild game would not involve a firearm....

Like a young lady I know who has stalked 1000 pound moose in the Alaskan tundra and taken them with a bow and arrow... not a rifle...

or bear and even cougar out west with bow and arrow of course...

Most people don't have the chance to legally make head shots on human beings in a day to day livelihood that we Americans live here in country...

Also most Bench Rest Association ranges that they list are at 600, 800 and 1000 yards not 300... and what they are accomplishing more so than personal shooting skills is control over their load development and repeatability in cartridge reloading rather than true shooting skills such as breathing and trigger let off or touch off...

I personally don't get into the whole BR shooting thing except to test my equipment and load development... I like going out to the Rose Bud in SD and shooting prairie dog's at different ranges out too about 800 even a couple 1000 yard shots, and rumping around listening for rattlers too come out of the tall grasses and meet a 22 handgun head shot from my hip... but that's me... not everyone... and all of the different shooting types per sey are all legitimate shooting sports... Except for the sniper which is a more so skill set used to fight war's.. It uses skill sets from different civie based sports, hunting, long range shooting, but has many other attributes...

And I don't think that was the OP's question again...

My hat's off to you guy's for your service, and I'm 100% behind you but I think you guy's don't see the need and use of the different shooting sports that we as Americans enjoy and foster and are picking on them in this thread....

More popcorn please.......

 

[42769vette]

ok ill chime in. imo we are comparing apples and oranges. br shooting is more competition reloading, sniper, tactical shooting is more range estimation, endurance, tough equipment. not that one is better than the other its just diffrent styles of shooting.

im guessing if you told a military sniper to shoot a bughole group off a bench and reload his own ammo, and use a 30 pound rifle with 42x zoom against a seasoned br shooter he would loose.

on the the other side if you take the best br shooter and ask them to shoot prone without there slead, use the recticle to gauge distance, and use blades of grass or mirage instid of his flags, after crawling ? miles to make a 822yd kill shot against a military sniper he woud loose.

 

[shootinghoosier]

As the OP, I certainly lost track of this post and wasn't aware that it had become so...well..."active". Glad (I think) to see some spirited conversation on long range shooting schools.

For what it's worth, I decided to sign up for the Wolf Precision Shooting School that I first inquired about on this post after talking to the guy that runs it. Super nice, no attitude, and seems to know a lot about reloading and gun customizing/accuratizing. I handload a lot of pistol/revolver loads, but not rifle...this individual should prove helpful.

Whether it turns out to be worthwhile, we'll need to wait and see...I signed up for the September school so I can spend this Spring/Summer working on different loads and zeroing in 3 heavy barreled rifles of different calibers (.223, 25-06 and .280 Rem) that I purchased over the past couple of months...plus it was reasonably priced. I plan to take a couple of the rifles with me and didn't want to sign up for something early this spring without spending some time behind the trigger. Some of the well-known schools are charging $1,500 or more for a few days of "schooling", while this one was around $500 for 3 days. Time of year and class size were important to me.

This won't be a school where the students are crawling around in the mud and playing sniper. It's strictly to learn about long range shooting. As to the point about a few of these guys might be wheezing a little after unloading their varmint rifles and several hundred rounds of ammo from their trunks, I don't think that part of it will phase me since I am a fitness nut, marathoner and a gym-rat. Hopefully I can maintain my resting pulse-rate, which is in the 42-45/minute range.

My only interest in the original post was to learn if anybody had personal knowledge of Wolf Precision...after not receiving much feedback, I called them and got comfortable with their program. There's not much more I can add other than to tell you to look for a full report towards the latter part of Sept 2011.

 

[sloughfoot]

Have fun, OP. It's all good. Come back and teach us all something..

 

[joekoug]

 

[42769vette]

As the OP, I certainly lost track of this post and wasn't aware that it had become so...well..."active". Glad (I think) to see some spirited conversation on long range shooting schools.

For what it's worth, I decided to sign up for the Wolf Precision Shooting School that I first inquired about on this post after talking to the guy that runs it. Super nice, no attitude, and seems to know a lot about reloading and gun customizing/accuratizing. I handload a lot of pistol/revolver loads, but not rifle...this individual should prove helpful.

Whether it turns out to be worthwhile, we'll need to wait and see...I signed up for the September school so I can spend this Spring/Summer working on different loads and zeroing in 3 heavy barreled rifles of different calibers (.223, 25-06 and .280 Rem) that I purchased over the past couple of months...plus it was reasonably priced. I plan to take a couple of the rifles with me and didn't want to sign up for something early this spring without spending some time behind the trigger. Some of the well-known schools are charging $1,500 or more for a few days of "schooling", while this one was around $500 for 3 days. Time of year and class size were important to me.

This won't be a school where the students are crawling around in the mud and playing sniper. It's strictly to learn about long range shooting. As to the point about a few of these guys might be wheezing a little after unloading their varmint rifles and several hundred rounds of ammo from their trunks, I don't think that part of it will phase me since I am a fitness nut, marathoner and a gym-rat. Hopefully I can maintain my resting pulse-rate, which is in the 42-45/minute range.

My only interest in the original post was to learn if anybody had personal knowledge of Wolf Precision...after not receiving much feedback, I called them and got comfortable with their program. There's not much more I can add other than to tell you to look for a full report towards the latter part of Sept 2011.

good job., im looking forward to a report back.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

Yes please do post back. I looked at their website and am also somewhat interested.

 

[Trevlan]

+1 to this. Plenty of learning opportunities on the line right here in Indiana or your could just join the Marines, go to Scout Sniper School for free

They just have to get 100 on thier PT exam and score expert marksman. When I took it, the requirements were 60 situps in two minutes, 3 miles in 18 mins, and 20 dead hang pull ups. That was back in '98, I'm sure, with all these enhancement drugs, they've been forced to raise the bar.

All of that, destined for sniper school, and on the last phisical, right before I was to be shipped to sniper school, I couldn't do a duck walk to save my life. Some times I wish I never played basketball or did Karate...

 

[USMC_0311]

They just have to get 100 on thier PT exam and score expert marksman. When I took it, the requirements were 60 situps in two minutes, 3 miles in 18 mins, and 20 dead hang pull ups. That was back in '98, I'm sure, with all these enhancement drugs, they've been forced to raise the bar.

All of that, destined for sniper school, and on the last phisical, right before I was to be shipped to sniper school, I couldn't do a duck walk to save my life. Some times I wish I never played basketball or did Karate...

You were 10 years after me
I remember a beach run and the color blind test. I had to cheat a little on the later. The test getting out is lot harder then getting in

 

[shootinghoosier]

As the OP, I certainly lost track of this post and wasn't aware that it had become so...well..."active". Glad (I think) to see some spirited conversation on long range shooting schools.

For what it's worth, I decided to sign up for the Wolf Precision Shooting School that I first inquired about on this post after talking to the guy that runs it. Super nice, no attitude, and seems to know a lot about reloading and gun customizing/accuratizing. I handload a lot of pistol/revolver loads, but not rifle...this individual should prove helpful.

Whether it turns out to be worthwhile, we'll need to wait and see...I signed up for the September school so I can spend this Spring/Summer working on different loads and zeroing in 3 heavy barreled rifles of different calibers (.223, 25-06 and .280 Rem) that I purchased over the past couple of months...plus it was reasonably priced. I plan to take a couple of the rifles with me and didn't want to sign up for something early this spring without spending some time behind the trigger. Some of the well-known schools are charging $1,500 or more for a few days of "schooling", while this one was around $500 for 3 days. Time of year and class size were important to me.

This won't be a school where the students are crawling around in the mud and playing sniper. It's strictly to learn about long range shooting. As to the point about a few of these guys might be wheezing a little after unloading their varmint rifles and several hundred rounds of ammo from their trunks, I don't think that part of it will phase me since I am a fitness nut, marathoner and a gym-rat. Hopefully I can maintain my resting pulse-rate, which is in the 42-45/minute range.

My only interest in the original post was to learn if anybody had personal knowledge of Wolf Precision...after not receiving much feedback, I called them and got comfortable with their program. There's not much more I can add other than to tell you to look for a full report towards the latter part of Sept 2011.

I wanted to offer a review on Wolf Precision’s Long Range Shooting School that I attended this past weekend. In one word, it was “excellent”, but here are the details:

Location: Johnstown, PA (about an 8 – 8 ½ hour drive from Indpls)

Cost: $495 (and Wolf Precision provided lunch on each day)

Duration of the course: 3 full days…the first half of each day was spent in a classroom at the Gander Mountain in Johnstown and the second half was spent shooting on the range (a farm) in Somerset, PA

Instructor: Jamie Dodson…I don’t have a resume on Jamie, but he has a wealth of knowledge that was willingly shared throughout the course. Well spoken, amiable and smart. Professionally, he has a military and police background, but I think his shooting foundation originated from varmint shooting. He left law enforcement to learn gunsmithing and is now producing some incredible rifles (visit http://www.wolfprecision.net/16601.html to see pictures of his work). His business card says it all… “Custom rifles and precision gunsmithing”. In addition to being a very accurate long distance marksman, he really knows his way around a reloading bench. He participates very successfully in long range shooting matches and sniper matches as evidenced by his sponsorship by Leupold and Hornady. Put him up against a field of strong competitors such as SWAT marksmen or Marine Sniper Instructors in a sniper match and the insiders in this game will likely be putting some money on Jamie. He really has this stuff down pat.

Range Description: The range is little more than a very large farm field shaped in somewhat of a bowl shape (visit http://www.wolfprecision.net/9201.html for pictures, which are midway down the page). The field is surrounded by trees with little to worry about hitting anything beyond that. A shooting platform has been built where 12 shooters can comfortably lay prone to engage targets ranging from 100 yards to 1,000 yards. Paper targets are placed at the 100 yard mark for zeroing scopes, but all other targets are steel. The targets at 200 yards are 2”x2” and 4”x4”, while the targets at 300 yards through 600 yards are about 10”x10” or 10”x16”. Targets beyond 600 yards are around 22”x24”.

Course Description: For a list of topics, visit http://www.wolfprecision.net/20401.html . It might not sound like a lot, but I’ll tell you, your head will be spinning on days 2 & 3. I had not been exposed to long distance shooting before, but there are a lot of concepts, numbers and formulas to memorize…MOA versus Mil-Radian…Movement of bullet impact per ¼ minute click at different distances…MOA correction for different wind speeds…estimating wind speed…gauging the distance when using mil-dot scopes…calculating adjustments for shooting up and down hill…calculating adjustments for moving targets.

Shooting at the Range: We had plenty of time each afternoon to zero our scopes and shoot at steel targets at varying distances up to and including 1,000 yards. Each student’s gun/ammo was chronographed late on the first day and a spreadsheet of ballistic information (included bullet velocity, energy, momentum, bullet drop, wind drift, time of flight for distances up to 1,000 yards) was given to us on the morning of the 2nd day. With the help of spotters, we were quickly able to learn where our bullets hit, if they were off target. The engagement of targets at increasing distances was taken slowly and methodically. Although it was more routine for some, everyone in the class was hitting the 1,000 yard target, which was barely visible with the naked eye. Hitting the target, of course, required the shooter to adjust their scope for bullet drop and wind drift. Bullet drop on a target at 1,000 is pretty extreme…for a .25-06, the drop is 358.21 inches or 30.8 MOA. The wind was not too bad, but it was still blowing a good 4-5 mph, requiring 4-5 MOA of adjustment.

Final Day: We were given a written and a practical test on the final day. Fortunately, the written test was “open book”, but it really helped us get prepared for what followed on the range. The range test required us to estimate the distances of 3 newly placed steel targets in the field. Using mil-dot ranging, we calculated the distance using the formula learned in the class-room and then engaged the targets. On the first target, my estimate was off by 28 yards on a target placed at 425 yards, my second estimate was off 14 yards at 350 yards, and my third estimate was only off 2 yards at 465 yards. We then took 2 shots at each of the targets where we estimated the distance, along with 2 shots each at targets that were placed at known distances of 200, 300, 400, 500 (2 different targets), 600 (2 different targets), and 700 yards. For bonus points, we could take one shot at a target at 750 yards. Of course the wind speed was constantly changing, which added to the difficulty. Out of a total of 23 shots, I hit 14 targets. That seemed to be pretty average for the group of shooters in my class. Our “top gun” in the group was much higher.

Overall Thoughts: This was a great opportunity to learn how to shoot at what I would deem to be extreme distances. The course required a good deal of attention in the classroom to fully understand the concepts and formulas, but there was plenty of time to apply the formulas at the range. Jamie offered plenty of guidance every day on shooting form and was a real asset when he was watching your shots through the spotting scope. He could really dial you in for consistent hits. The written material that he provided has all of the formulas and will be a real asset for my next trip to the range.

 

[teddy12b]

Great review, thanks for sharing