I'll risk the responses and put my two cents in. I think the number of rounds put down range during a class can be a deceiving gauge of the effectiveness of the class. Let me say that I have been a student in classes where I've shot 3K rounds for a three day class. I've also taken classes where I've shot maybe 120 in three days. The bigger picture for me is that I learned in both environments. I am better because I took the opportunity. I have taken classes with MALC and find it to be a great value for the instruction. I personally like the variety of information MALC offers. It may not be for the hardcore "gunslinger" that wants nothing more than round count, but if you are looking for an overarching skill set that will make you a better protector of yourself and your family, I wouldn't dismiss MALC. FYI, I am in no way affiliated with them, just a guy that likes to train.
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MALC Institute
- Thread starter chezuki
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For those that round count is so important why not just go practice instead of go shoot in a class? I get that I don't want to sit in a classroom and hear a lecture about shooting. But for those who just want to shoot why not practice?
There has to be an inflection point where the amount of practice reinforces the concept. But yeah, you shouldn't expect to fire enough ammo to master any one topic or you are taking away from instruction time. On the other hand, I have also been in classes that spent way too much time talking.
^this^
ColdSteel223
Sharpshooter
In regards to MALC training. I have taken a few classes with them. The first aid/Medical stuff is top notch. I have no concerns with it.
The firearms classes, as best I can tell, operate off of real world big boy rules. They host Sonny Puzikas and seem to be comfortable with his teaching style/method. (Sonny has very valid training OBJECTIVES, his METHODS can be controversial)
https://www.facebook.com/2093351191...335119156807/1199945256762450/?type=3&theater
If you are "old school" 4 rules, Gunsite, YFA, EAG train safe for your gunfight, you probably won't be comfortable in one of their "advanced" firearms classes. I have not taken their intro handgun class, so I have no basis to compare to on that level.
The cost of their classes are usually very affordable. There is value to be had in attending their classes just understand how you will be instructed and be comfortable with it.
The firearms classes, as best I can tell, operate off of real world big boy rules. They host Sonny Puzikas and seem to be comfortable with his teaching style/method. (Sonny has very valid training OBJECTIVES, his METHODS can be controversial)
https://www.facebook.com/2093351191...335119156807/1199945256762450/?type=3&theater
If you are "old school" 4 rules, Gunsite, YFA, EAG train safe for your gunfight, you probably won't be comfortable in one of their "advanced" firearms classes. I have not taken their intro handgun class, so I have no basis to compare to on that level.
The cost of their classes are usually very affordable. There is value to be had in attending their classes just understand how you will be instructed and be comfortable with it.
There is a difference between real world big boy rules and being unsafe while training. People seem to think this is a black and white. It's not. For example; pointing a twice cleared and "roped" gun at someone during a class is safe. It is literally impossible to shoot someone with a rope that goes continually from the muzzle through the mag well. Also, if the muzzle is in a safe direction (such as down) and my finger is off the trigger; it doesn't matter which direction my body faces. The 180 rule is for matches. On the other hand, shooting from a wheel chair that is bouncing around in gravel while the shooters immediately to your left and right move forward ahead of you... not so much.
I have been at classes where where there was so much talking we didn't get to try much. And the "instruction" was more like motivation than teaching. It sucked.
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» SRE 1 ? Behavioral Analysis
This one has me intrigued. Anyone know of any like it in this area(not that up there's a problem. Brother lives 10 minutes from Merrillville.) Just thought I'd ask if anyone knows of this stuff around Indy.
This one has me intrigued. Anyone know of any like it in this area(not that up there's a problem. Brother lives 10 minutes from Merrillville.) Just thought I'd ask if anyone knows of this stuff around Indy.
A little bit of thread drift, but I am definitely done with Sonny after his vociferous defense of that ridiculousness.
ColdSteel223
Sharpshooter
Hand guns were cleared, and checked by two other people. NOT roped through the barrel or training barrels installed. They were then used like you would a blue gun.
The class could have met the training objective by use of blue guns and air soft pistols for most of the drills.
Big boy rules , you use your real gun to get used to pointing and pressing the trigger on a real person.
Some believe that is safe after the gun is triple checked and can roll with it and not have a problem. Other people believe that is one example of the greatest safety violations ever.
Figure out which group you are in and roll with it.
The class could have met the training objective by use of blue guns and air soft pistols for most of the drills.
Big boy rules , you use your real gun to get used to pointing and pressing the trigger on a real person.
Some believe that is safe after the gun is triple checked and can roll with it and not have a problem. Other people believe that is one example of the greatest safety violations ever.
Figure out which group you are in and roll with it.
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Does pulling the trigger of an empty gun prepare a person for defending themselves with a gun? Does it matter if I shoot cardboard, paper or people in the respect of, is the trigger press different mechanically?
I have never shot a person, and I hope I never have to do so. But I have made up my mind that if the threat/situation demands it that I will do so. I suppose one does not really know until the time comes, but I feel like the decision is one that is made in their mind long before the situation is at hand. I do not think the hard part will be the shooting in most cases. I think the hard part will be recognizing that the fight has started in time to prevail in that fight.
I just cannot wrap my head around the need to clear my gun and point and click it at people. Just does not compute.
I have never shot a person, and I hope I never have to do so. But I have made up my mind that if the threat/situation demands it that I will do so. I suppose one does not really know until the time comes, but I feel like the decision is one that is made in their mind long before the situation is at hand. I do not think the hard part will be the shooting in most cases. I think the hard part will be recognizing that the fight has started in time to prevail in that fight.
I just cannot wrap my head around the need to clear my gun and point and click it at people. Just does not compute.
Before MILES equipment existed, we did dry-fire FOF training. No where near as good as things like simunitions (or MILES either) though. Obviously, the idea was to add some realism by aiming real guns at real people who were trying to out manuver us and were pointing real guns at us.
Recognizing, in time, that the fight has begun is one thing, but I think being decisive in that moment can be even harder with a "training scar" like "NO BITING, do unto others the way you want them to do unto you--and BTW watch that 180deg so you don't point the gun at something you don't intend to destroy".
Today, with simunitions etc, I don't see a reason to aim real guns at people either. Having drills without a static firing line in an advanced class, is another matter. If you've never fired at a target with people in the general down range vicinity, you can't expect to "rise to the occasion".
Recognizing, in time, that the fight has begun is one thing, but I think being decisive in that moment can be even harder with a "training scar" like "NO BITING, do unto others the way you want them to do unto you--and BTW watch that 180deg so you don't point the gun at something you don't intend to destroy".
Today, with simunitions etc, I don't see a reason to aim real guns at people either. Having drills without a static firing line in an advanced class, is another matter. If you've never fired at a target with people in the general down range vicinity, you can't expect to "rise to the occasion".
How does having people down range prepare you for rising to the occasion?
Recognizing, in time, that the fight has begun is one thing, but I think being decisive in that moment can be even harder with a "training scar" like "NO BITING, do unto others the way you want them to do unto you--and BTW watch that 180deg so you don't point the gun at something you don't intend to destroy".
Why is being decisive hard?
Recognizing, in time, that the fight has begun is one thing, but I think being decisive in that moment can be even harder with a "training scar" like "NO BITING, do unto others the way you want them to do unto you--and BTW watch that 180deg so you don't point the gun at something you don't intend to destroy".
Why is being decisive hard?
ColdSteel223
Sharpshooter
It is SUPPOSED to make you more comfortable with the fact "if it was your wife/kid standing next to the target" that you would focus on making the hit on the target and not be "bothered" by the fact your wife/kid was in front of the muzzle of YOUR gun. Stress inoculation or something like that.
Once again it is a difference in METHODS. Some people agree with Sonny & Tactical Response and the methods that they use. Others say that they (Sonny and TR) are unsafe and will get someone shot/killed.
Everyone needs to have a basic understanding of the methods that their instructor uses. It may take a class or two to determine if you are comfortable with those methods. In some instances you might just decide to pack up and leave before lunch on day one.
Old school (Gunsite, YFA, EAG, & Thunder Ranch) students are usually quicker to leave before lunch. Younger students (less experience) think this is cool, look at all the neat stuff he/they showed us.
It is effective training, until someone takes a round. which may NEVER happen. Is the training worth the risk?
That is up to each individual to decide.
Some people/trainers/authorities in the field believe that the 'normal' human mind is hard wired against killing humans--even their "enemies." Training helps to overcome the natural limitations. Col Grossman is a big proponent of this idea, if you've read his books you know what I mean. However, Grossman has also "shown" that simply having realistic targets rather than bullseye may be enough to overcome the natural inhibitions to killing a human. So that begs the question of "how realistic does it have to be to work?"
As devil's advocate:
It would be nice if all classes had the high end training guns but the reality is that most don't have enough to conduct a class. Should they forgo certain types of drills as a result or does roping a gun meet the necessary safety standards of proof that an inert object is now harmless? I think yes, if roped, no if not.
Finally, the argument of "can you shoot a bad guy if other people are around and you've never "shot" into a crowd?" is very much the same argument that anti-2A use to say civilian carry is pointless, because civilians won't rise to the occasion. The reality is some people do rise. There are probably people who do not, but it's difficult to measure null events.
As devil's advocate:
It would be nice if all classes had the high end training guns but the reality is that most don't have enough to conduct a class. Should they forgo certain types of drills as a result or does roping a gun meet the necessary safety standards of proof that an inert object is now harmless? I think yes, if roped, no if not.
Finally, the argument of "can you shoot a bad guy if other people are around and you've never "shot" into a crowd?" is very much the same argument that anti-2A use to say civilian carry is pointless, because civilians won't rise to the occasion. The reality is some people do rise. There are probably people who do not, but it's difficult to measure null events.
Most of the armed citizens that shot the James/Younger crowd up in Minnesota were not trained professionals but they shot up some very experience gun hands. I think that is an example of people making a decision to not be victims and fighting back. They realized what was going down and decided to act. Seems like they rose to the occasion. I doubt that most of the citizens were shooting for the first time.
