Man Dies After NYPD Chokehold

[BogWalker]

Looked to be resisting to me, but I found the amount of force to be rather excessive. Seemed like that many officers could bring him down without the choke hold. The deceased definitely didn't seem to be violent in his resistance but rather just uncooperative.

 

[Destro]

Why would that matter to you?

It will matter tons in the civil suit no doubt coming.

 

[Denny347]

The officer applied a "Vascular Neck Restraint" to take the guy down. I see that as a sign of poor tactics training which would not surprise me with a department of 30k officers. People apply this technique because they've seen it on TV. It is quite likely that the department does not train this as it is indefensible in court in anything other than a deadly force situation. I would also ASSUME that they get 40 or so hours of basic "hand to hand" in the academy and that is the extent of the training in this area for their career. Officers will fall back to what they know, TV, or street fighting. A "VNR" is considered a choke hold but does so by blood, not air. If it is applied to you you will know feel it until you are out. This what it looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHfgh8L8lBw Besides being a firearms instructor, I'm also a defensive tactics instructor as well. While the "VNR" was misapplied, I do not think that is what killed him. Based on his size and position, I would venture to guess that he died from "positional asphyxiation". His weight PLUS officers weight applied to his upper body could have been enough to suffocate him. An arresting officer MUST be cognizant of this danger when taking someone to the ground and securing them. Secure them quickly and move them to their side or back on their butt.
Cutting Edge Training | All posts tagged 'positional asphyxia' In the end, their actions were likely the cause of this man's death, either gross negligence or **** poor training. Positional asphyxiation (if this indeed the cause) is a concept beyond most street officers normal thought processes if the department never introduced them to the dangers. NYPD could easily be on the hook for "failure to train" as much as the officers are. As far as "VNR" goes, we introduce new officers to the concept but NEVER teach them to apply it as it is a deadly force situation that has no real application for law enforcement since we have more appropriate tools to address that need. We do teach how to defeat this hold but never to apply it. We did have an officer apply it in the field once a few years ago (thankfully no permanent harm to the arrestee) and he was promptly fired by the Merit Board as it is 100% against training. Just food for thought.

 

[Denny347]

I think a taser would have been a better option than a choke hold. With his size and fat it may not have been as effective as on a skinnier person, but most likely would have had some effect. The real question is whether a taser, or the use of force exhibited, was warranted and appropriate.

NYPD officers do not carry Tasers. Liability issues and $$$.

 

[Mark 1911]

Denny, thanks for chiming in. I was hoping an LEO would lend some practical experience and perspective to this situation. So its just not my inexperienced civilian "over-sentimentalism" and naivete here which lead me to think that the killing of this man was way over the top?

 

[bingley]

Where liberalism is the law of the land, freedom means nothing.

I see this sort of reasoning from both liberal and conservative friends. They seen an incident in an "enemy" state, and they categorize as as characteristic of the enemy. I call this confirmation bias. The quote above is the conservative version. For the liberal version, all you have to do is replace "liberalism" with "conservatism," and they'll point to incidents like the SWAT team that raided the wrong house and shot the house owner (a Marine) by mistake in Arizona as an example. After all, it happened in Arizona, so conservatives are responsible, right? It's amazing how two sides use very similar rhetoric. The truth is probably in neither camp. It sounds like Denny's got it, as usual.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It really saddens me that the people of a country formed by smugglers and tax evaders upon principles of individual liberty now have made it an arrestable offense to sell your loose cigarettes.

You think the founding fathers wanted a nation of smugglers and tax evaders? It's difficult to reconcile that with our first president raising a militia over 10,000 strong and armed as the military of the the time in response to unpaid whisky taxes and attacks on the tax collectors.

The rebelled against the crown and set up a system for the people to change the law, not ignore it or rebel as they saw fit.

 

[Denny347]

Denny, thanks for chiming in. I was hoping an LEO would lend some practical experience and perspective to this situation. So its just not my inexperienced civilian "over-sentimentalism" and naivete here which lead me to think that the killing of this man was way over the top?

Likely, yes. Obviously pending autopsy reports. But yes, the officer/s bear some, if not all, responsibility and well as NYPD. They were either malicious or ill trained or both.

 

[Fargo]

You think the founding fathers wanted a nation of smugglers and tax evaders? It's difficult to reconcile that with our first president raising a militia over 10,000 strong and armed as the military of the the time in response to unpaid whisky taxes and attacks on the tax collectors.

The rebelled against the crown and set up a system for the people to change the law, not ignore it or rebel as they saw fit.

No, they wanted a country without oppressive tax laws and with due process. If you think the folks by and large responsible for the Declaration of Independence were the same ones suppressing the whiskey tax protest nearly 20 years later, you are historically mistaken. Neither Washington nor Hamilton are even signatories to the DoI. Please reread what you quoted, it says nothing like what you say.

It saddens me that the American people are on board with making it a criminal offense to sell your own individual cigarettes.

I'm confident that the men who died fighting for our independence would feel the same.


This doesn't mean I'm advocating for rebellion or even breaking the law. It means I don't believe the law should be what it is.

 

[Fargo]

Likely, yes. Obviously pending autopsy reports. But yes, the officer/s bear some, if not all, responsibility and well as NYPD. They were either malicious or ill trained or both.

I will be surprised if there isn't a federal 1983 criminal prosecution on it. Based upon what is reported of the circumstances leading to the arrest and how it was executed, would also hazard a wild-ass guess that there will be a finding of guilt on the part of the choking officer.

The US Atty up there has done it before and this case has the kind of publicity surrounding it that keeps US Attys breathless. Former NYPD Officer Francis Livoti was just released from the federal penitentiary in 2005 for a case which was really similar.

The WDNY also just indicted 3 Buffalo cops on an excessive force 1983 without death.

 

[Denny347]

]I will be surprised if there isn't a federal 1983 criminal prosecution on it[/COLOR]. Based upon what is reported of the circumstances leading to the arrest and how it was executed, would also hazard a wild-ass guess that there will be a finding of guilt on the part of the choking officer.

The US Atty up there has done it before and this case has the kind of publicity surrounding it that keeps US Attys breathless. Former NYPD Officer Francis Livoti was just released from the federal penitentiary in 2005 for a case which was really similar.

The WDNY also just indicted 3 Buffalo cops on an excessive force 1983 without death.

Foregone conclusion that DOJ will get involved. I've seen DOJ investigations for much less than this.

 

[rgrimm01]

Well, first off, the choke hold WAS released, at about 1:06 in that video clip......

It is my understanding that the use of a "choke hold" is prohibited in the NYPD patrol guide because it may be fatal. It does not say that it must be released before 20 seconds or the suspect expires. He obviously had his forearm across the throat and you can hear the strain in his words at the time he is taken down. It may or may not be illegal, but is definitely against policy. There will no doubt be a check written. I would also be surprised if this guy remains on the force. In what career field can one work in which a breach of procedure coinciding (note that I did not say causes or contributes to) directly with a death is not rewarded with immediate dismissal?

The officer applied a "Vascular Neck Restraint" to take the guy down. I see that as a sign of poor tactics training which would not surprise me with a department of 30k officers. People apply this technique because they've seen it on TV. It is quite likely that the department does not train this as it is indefensible in court in anything other than a deadly force situation. I would also ASSUME that they get 40 or so hours of basic "hand to hand" in the academy and that is the extent of the training in this area for their career. Officers will fall back to what they know, TV, or street fighting. A "VNR" is considered a choke hold but does so by blood, not air. If it is applied to you you will know feel it until you are out. This what it looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHfgh8L8lBw Besides being a firearms instructor, I'm also a defensive tactics instructor as well. While the "VNR" was misapplied, I do not think that is what killed him. Based on his size and position, I would venture to guess that he died from "positional asphyxiation". His weight PLUS officers weight applied to his upper body could have been enough to suffocate him. An arresting officer MUST be cognizant of this danger when taking someone to the ground and securing them. Secure them quickly and move them to their side or back on their butt.
Cutting Edge Training | All posts tagged 'positional asphyxia' In the end, their actions were likely the cause of this man's death, either gross negligence or **** poor training. Positional asphyxiation (if this indeed the cause) is a concept beyond most street officers normal thought processes if the department never introduced them to the dangers. NYPD could easily be on the hook for "failure to train" as much as the officers are. As far as "VNR" goes, we introduce new officers to the concept but NEVER teach them to apply it as it is a deadly force situation that has no real application for law enforcement since we have more appropriate tools to address that need. We do teach how to defeat this hold but never to apply it. We did have an officer apply it in the field once a few years ago (thankfully no permanent harm to the arrestee) and he was promptly fired by the Merit Board as it is 100% against training. Just food for thought.

Thank you. The world abhors a mismatch from the get go, and views a dog-pile for a petty reason with disdain. When a death occurs during this dog-pile, an uproar will no doubt ensue. To further the perceived offense by blindly defending the action further separates the divide when most people truly are or want to be in LE's corner. Again, thanks for this response.

 

[renauldo]

What does the NYPD Patrol Guide suggest about arresting a belligerent 400lb man who clearly doesn't wish to comply? I believe on page 21,763 or 21,764 it's suggested to tow a bear trap to the scene and lay a trail of cheese burgers from the offender to the trap. If that ploy fails how would you guys suggest controlling such an individual?

 

[Destro]

What does the NYPD Patrol Guide suggest about arresting a belligerent 400lb man who clearly doesn't wish to comply? I believe on page 21,763 or 21,764 it's suggested to tow a bear trap to the scene and lay a trail of cheese burgers from the offender to the trap. If that ploy fails how would you guys suggest controlling such an individual?

No dobut some of the suggestions will be "what ever happened to asking nicely" or "peace officers being more respectful"....throw in a little "war on drugs/MRAP/Obama" for good measure and you will have all you need for a good cop block thread.

 

[Dead Duck]

What does the NYPD Patrol Guide suggest about arresting a belligerent 400lb man who clearly doesn't wish to comply? I believe on page 21,763 or 21,764 it's suggested to tow a bear trap to the scene and lay a trail of cheese burgers from the offender to the trap. If that ploy fails how would you guys suggest controlling such an individual?

Cheese Burgers

 

[forgop]

Another of these cases again?

Harold & Kumar: http://youtu.be/HhAZlj1xRLo

 

[Fargo]

What does the NYPD Patrol Guide suggest about arresting a belligerent 400lb man who clearly doesn't wish to comply? I believe on page 21,763 or 21,764 it's suggested to tow a bear trap to the scene and lay a trail of cheese burgers from the offender to the trap. If that ploy fails how would you guys suggest controlling such an individual?

If you don't want to play by the rules, don't take the job of enforcing the rules...


The rule against choking suspects is far less chicken**** than the rule about selling your cigarettes.

 

[TopDog]

It is really strange how people interpret resisting. If the cop gives you direction and you ignore him and continue to do as you please you are resisting. I learned as a young boy, cops says stop you stop, you no stop you suffer the consequences.

Second that was some choke hold . Really, if you have ever been choked out you can not repeatedly speak while being choked. The assclown being arrested clearly was not being choked out. Without further information I would say that chicken and waffles killed this man. Al Sharpton is a flat out race baiter. A dirt bag that makes money off of situations blown way out of proportion. Adding Al Sharpton to the case just invalidates anything from the side of the man that was arrested as far as I am concerned.

 

[Darral27]

It is really strange how people interpret resisting. If the cop gives you direction and you ignore him and continue to do as you please you are resisting. I learned as a young boy, cops says stop you stop, you no stop you suffer the consequences.

Second that was some choke hold . Really, if you have ever been choked out you can not repeatedly speak while being choked. The assclown being arrested clearly was not being choked out. Without further information I would say that chicken and waffles killed this man. Al Sharpton is a flat out race baiter. A dirt bag that makes money off of situations blown way out of proportion. Adding Al Sharpton to the case just invalidates anything from the side of the man that was arrested as far as I am concerned.

If you as a citizen are physically attacking somebody and they die during that attack you will be charged with murder. What makes the police doing it any different? I really find it perverse that so many of you on here say we must bow down to police in some situations but are defending our rights by not bowing down in others. Making fun of this guy's weight also seems pointless, he is a big guy, ok, is it OK to kill people now as long as they are fat?

 

[rgrimm01]

What does the NYPD Patrol Guide suggest about arresting a belligerent 400lb man who clearly doesn't wish to comply? I believe on page 21,763 or 21,764 it's suggested to tow a bear trap to the scene and lay a trail of cheese burgers from the offender to the trap. If that ploy fails how would you guys suggest controlling such an individual?

Why not take a chainsaw to him? Cut him up until such a point where he will comply, right? As long as they get their man right? We absolutely cannot have someone selling cigarettes. Thank goodness NYC will not ever have to deal with that menace to the city.

The patrol guide prohibits a choke hold. That's period.

I do not condone the breaking of law. I also do not feel that he deserved to die.