Man killed during break-in attempt.

[E5RANGER375]

If I was the officer that responded and had the sole descion on charges, nobody would be sitting on a bench judging you for anything. In m mind it was a justified shoot. Now was it morally right???? That is not for me to decide, that is between them and a higher power.

My take on it is this:


If someone pulls a gun or knife on me, do I have to wait until they fire a round or try to stab me before I shoot?? Nope, it's all about if I felt my life or the life of another was in danger of death or SBI. Why should I have to wait until he gets the door open and crosses the threshold before I shoot? If I feel those same threatened feelings as above, then booger hook on bang switch and activate, I'll have the rest of my life to decide if I was morally right or not..............but at least me and mine will be alive to think about it.


And no........I am not saying open fire on anyone that knocks to hard my door. This incident, 0200hrs and kicking my door...........he aint there to deliver my girlscout cookies.


Now I do understand there are those that would wait, and that choice is yours and yours alone and I support you in whatever choice you would make.

and thats good cop'n

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

...but the article didn't say if the guy had a weapon or not. He could've been snockered and came by with an attitude, so you just shoot him through the door? That's not to say I would not have possibly shot at him, but I would have called 911 and left the phone on while I let him kick...so it's on record in my favor

 

[Titanium_Frost]

...but the article didn't say if the guy had a weapon or not. He could've been snockered and came by with an attitude, so you just shoot him through the door? That's not to say I would not have possibly shot at him, but I would have called 911 and left the phone on while I let him kick...so it's on record in my favor

And while you're waiting on hold or distracted he comes through the door with a gun or knife or a friggin bazooka for all you know. Under these circumstances there would be 9 new .33 caliber holes in my door. And a mess to clean up on the porch in the morning.

 

[Flyguy]

All my doors have glass where I can see through the top half of the doors. If someone is attempting to break in I will shoot through the glass after making my presence known. The reason is it's easier to shoot them when I'm aiming through a 30" door and they can't charge me or hide in the house if the bottom part of the door is still blocking their entry. My main goal is to stop the threat as soon as possible and prevent him from gaining the upper hand.

A dead intruder is good but a dead intruder who doesn't make a bloody mess in my house is even better. Nothing a little bleach and a garden hose wont clean up then.

Somehow I am missing something here. If you are inside and able to shoot thru the door then you are able to "take him/them" down if they gain entry... and you have the advantage here. Why shoot thru the door?

In this case I would be more than patient and wait till they broke my door. Then unload with everything you have and the evedince is on your side. If you are standing there waiting they won't have a chance of getting in and hiding.

 

[Flyguy]

Also..(I am new here and havn't figured out the edit thing)

If you shoot thru your door there is no way you can prove that the dead guy on your porch was trying to gain entry.

Go ahead and yell at him, then shoot him thru the door and see how that works.

You will have more than a carpet to deal with.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

If you shoot thru your door there is no way you can prove that the dead guy on your porch was trying to gain entry.

1 . Dead BG on your porch ,

2. His DNA , shoe / boot print on your door ---helps corroborate your story .

I would think that's plenty of evidence laying or sticking around .

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I would think that's plenty of evidence laying or sticking around .

LMAO that's quotable right there.

 

[IndyRobotEng]

Wow this one is kinda tough without all of the facts. Not knowing if threats were made prior to the guy showing up at the door makes it sound unjustified, however, if there were specific threats made prior and some history between the two it could conceivably have been a serious threat in this guys mind.

 

[Indy317]

I would have waited until the door was kicked in to pull the trigger. Lawyers will eat him alive for shooting through the door.

Not even that but I would have waited until the door was kicked in ...

Yep that doesnt look like a wise thing to do to shoot through the door just because the guy was "about to kick the door in".

Hey, if it is good enough for an off-duty state trooper, why isn't it good enough for civilians?

Trooper's Shooting Of Burglary Suspect Spotlights Self-Defense Law - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis

 

[Flyguy]

OK I give up.

I joined this forum because I thought that I could interact with gun owners.

I am an ex LEO. (BOOOO) and I carry daily.

I really thought that it would be great to interact with people that feel the same way I do.

To the moderators... It is horrible that you allow the insults and bashing on this forum to go on. I am not talking about this thread, but it is obvious that it is OK throught this forum.

I am hoping that more people are willing to carry and advance our rights, but I am tired of getting bashed and insulted for stating my opinion when that is all it is... my opinion.

Many members on this forum are so narcissistic that they think they are being attacked just because someone disagrees with them. That is their problem.

Go ahead and call me thin skined... I could care less.

I just thought I would join a forum with people that think like me.

Obviously this isn't it.

IMHO... god speed for the cause, but I'm not going to participate here any more. I know no one cares... so why should I?

 

[E5RANGER375]

Flyguy, I think you are giving up too soon over nothing. you wanna debate or not? not everyone here agrees. it doesnt mean we arent good gun owners. I reread the post and cant see anything that makes me see why you would leave?

 

[Flyguy]

Sorry I didn't quote the earlier reply that prompted my response.

I have a lot of respect for many of the people on this forum, but there are too many loose canons that I feel will hurt our cause in the long run.

Peace brothers

 

[lovemachine]

Flyguy,

You shouldn't give up. Believe it or not, every member's thoughts and opinions are valued on this site. It may not seem like it sometimes, but it really is.
If you leave now, you'll regret it. Just stick around, you'll make some good friends here.

It gets crazy here, but being part of the INGO community is so worth it.

 

[bassplayrguy]

I was thinking that I would probably not even yell at the guy. I would just wait in the shadows and when he got far enough in to where he wouldn't fall out, it's curtains. Better to be judged than carried right?

 

[revance]

Not even that but I would have waited until the door was kicked in AND after I told that guy to stop a couple of times with loud verbal commands I would have THEN pull the trigger if he didnt stop or didnt went to the ground.

Yep that doesnt look like a wise thing to do to shoot through the door just because the guy was "about to kick the door in".
You dont shoot someone because he was "about to do something".
It looks like the shooter's life was not in danger as the guy was not even inside his home yet.

By the time you do that, the person will have shot and killed you.

We are not law enforcement officers. We have no duty to issue multiple verbal commands. Our duty is to protect ourselves. If someone is breaking into my home, I have EVERY REASON to believe they intend to harm me and my family. They made that decision, not me, I have no reason to feel guilty for protecting my family.

Hesitation like you are describing is what gets people killed.

I should mention that I would wait for them to get the door open. I have steel doors and the round wouldn't penetrate enough and it also creates the danger of hitting something you don't want to. However my reservations have nothing to do with thinking the person trying to kick my door down should be given a chance. Waiting for someone to gain entry to your home and then issuing multiple verbal warnings is just asking for them to kill you.

 

[.40caltrucker]

Somehow I am missing something here. If you are inside and able to shoot thru the door then you are able to "take him/them" down if they gain entry... and you have the advantage here. Why shoot thru the door?

In this case I would be more than patient and wait till they broke my door. Then unload with everything you have and the evedince is on your side. If you are standing there waiting they won't have a chance of getting in and hiding.

No doubt letting them gain entry then shooting is going to make their intentions easier to prove. However, it's night time someone is trying to break in and for all I know they have a shotgun and night vision goggles. If I let them all the way in I lose some of the advantage and my shot could become a lot harder to take when I'm shooting at a dark moving target. Whereas it's easier to shoot a target that is in a 30" door way.

I base this on the intruder knowing I'm right there and still trying to break in. Like I said I would make my presence known to him and if he continues then he truly is a threat that needs to be dealt with immediately.

 

[Sylvain]

By the time you do that, the person will have shot and killed you.

We are not law enforcement officers. We have no duty to issue multiple verbal commands. Our duty is to protect ourselves. If someone is breaking into my home, I have EVERY REASON to believe they intend to harm me and my family. They made that decision, not me, I have no reason to feel guilty for protecting my family.

Hesitation like you are describing is what gets people killed.

I should mention that I would wait for them to get the door open. I have steel doors and the round wouldn't penetrate enough and it also creates the danger of hitting something you don't want to. However my reservations have nothing to do with thinking the person trying to kick my door down should be given a chance. Waiting for someone to gain entry to your home and then issuing multiple verbal warnings is just asking for them to kill you.

It depends on what happen of course, if the guy who breaks in is armed with a gun and point it at me I would shoot him with no hesitation right away without any verbal command.

If he's unarmed and im far away from me then I would give him verbal commands.That wouldnt be hesitation, just me deciding that its right to give this guy a last chance before taking his life.
I would command him to get on the ground and I would then call 911 to have him arrested.
No need to take his life if is not a direct threat to me.And no I dont think that a burglar laying on my floor with a gun pointing at him while the police is coming is a threat to me.Maybe a dangerous situation but not a direct threat to my life.So no need to kill another human being for that.
If he decided not to obey my command or refuse to get on the ground I would them force him to do so with a couple of shots.
Then I would call 911 to make sure than they bring a body bag for the corps.

 

[revance]

It depends on what happen of course, if the guy who breaks in is armed with a gun and point it at me I would shoot him with no hesitation right away without any verbal command.

If he's unarmed and im far away from me then I would give him verbal commands.That wouldnt be hesitation, just me deciding that its right to give this guy a last chance before taking his life.
I would command him to get on the ground and I would then call 911 to have him arrested.
No need to take his life if is not a direct threat to me.And no I dont think that a burglar laying on my floor with a gun pointing at him while the police is coming is a threat to me.Maybe a dangerous situation but not a direct threat to my life.So no need to kill another human being for that.
If he decided not to obey my command or refuse to get on the ground I would them force him to do so with a couple of shots.
Then I would call 911 to make sure than they bring a body bag for the corps.

By the time you see their gun its too late. If someone knowingly breaks into an occupied home, they are there to hurt someone.

Waiting for them to gain entry is one thing, there are lots of reasonable arguments for that. But taking time to evaluate them AFTER they have smashed your door down to see if you THINK they pose a threat to you is asinine. YOU aren't the one who decided to take a life, THEY are.

I am not trying to be mean, but I REALLY REALLY REALLY suggest you go get some training. NO respectable trainer would tell you to do that.

If you haven't made the decision to shoot now, you won't do it when the time comes. This has been well proven. If you are planning on going through all of these ifs-ands-ors-buts now, when it actually happens you will be as well off as a Vogon requesting permission to defend himself by submitting the necessary forms. You are going to make some anti-gunner very happy by being killed with a gun in your hand (don't think there aren't anti-gunners that nasty).

To quote Sheriff Ken Campbell (paraphrased of course): "Don't assume your attacker is going to be a man, and don't assume your attacker is going to be an adult. Those assumptions will cause hesitation and get you killed".

He is talking about BRIEF hesitation many might suffer when surprised by being attacked by a woman or youth. He is instructing you to prepare yourself NOW to shoot a woman or a youth so you don't hesitate when the time comes. There is definitely no time to try to determine if someone who just broke your door down has a weapon or not, nor does it matter if they have a weapon.

 

[finity]

Not even that but I would have waited until the door was kicked in AND after I told that guy to stop a couple of times with loud verbal commands I would have THEN pull the trigger if he didnt stop or didnt went to the ground.

Yep that doesnt look like a wise thing to do to shoot through the door just because the guy was "about to kick the door in".
You dont shoot someone because he was "about to do something".
It looks like the shooter's life was not in danger as the guy was not even inside his home yet.

In IN you don't have to be in danger of SBI to defend your home. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the self-defense law that, FOR AN ATTACK ON YOUR HOME, you have to be in fear of SBI. That assumption is already made for you in the law.

The only requirement is that your use of deadly force to stop the attack has to be reasonable.

Also, the law allows DF to be used to not only "stop" an attack but to "prevent" one, as well.

Its also true the other way around, even if something is illegal I can still be thinking that its the right thing to do.

While I agree you have the option to not use DF "until you can see the whites of their eyes" here is the point where you'll possibly end up going to prison.

You can't violate the law that society has put in place (outside of a few exceptions) just because you don't agree with it. Well, I guess you can but you have to be prepared to pay the price.

For example - some on here state that they would gladly (almost eagerly at times ) shoot someone for simply trespassing or stealing from them. Sure they could do it but it makes no sense to shoot someone for stealing a bicycle & spend the next however-many years in prison. You can think you were justified all you want but if you didn't follow the law then you are guilty.

For exemple if I feel that myself or my loved ones are in serious danger and I feel it could be a threat to my or their lifes I would use lethal force even if it not legal for me to do so.

I do what's right for me first then I do what's right according to the law.
I think lots of people think the same way.
Im talking about serious life or death situations here of course.Not about thinking that its right for me to drive over the speed limit.
If what I feel is the right think is also legal then its the best scenario for me.

The example you use above doesn't address the problem with the "If I believe it's OK I'll do it no matter the law" statement you made.

There is nowhere that I know of in the US where you would not be justified in using DF against someone who threatened you or your family's life. You may have try to retreat in some states first but when it comes right down to it, you ultimately always have a right to self-defense.

Like I said there are very few exceptions to the “I’ll do it no matter what the law tells me I can do” idea. Most people who say that really haven’t fully thought it through completely.

Well like I said it may be legal but it doesnt sound right to me.

I would not take someones life unless I really have to and I will give myself the duty to retreat even if the law says that I dont have that duty to retreat.
If someone breaks in I will probably step back while ordering that person to stop to give him more chance to stop.I would only shoot if I cant retreat anymore like if im back to a wall or if that person is getting to my loved ones.I would also not shoot if I can stop that person otherwise.

What if someone enters your house in the middle of the night (you didnt lock the door).You point a gun at him, ask him to stop and he still walks towards you.You shoot him and kill him like you can legally do.
Was it legal?
Yes.
Was it right?
Well you tell me after you learned more about the person who walked in your house and that you killed.
This person had mental illness, he thought he lived here or maybe he lived here years ago and since he had alzhameir he forgot that he doesnt lived here anymore.
Due to his mental illness he didnt understand that gun pointing at him and your commands was a threat to himself and didnt stop walking towards you.
Maybe he was deaf, didnt see your gun as you were standing in the dark and didnt hear your commands.

It was legal to shoot him ... but was it right?

Not everything legal is right just like not everything right is legal.

Would it be “right”? I’d answer with a “qualified yes”.

You had no way of knowing before hand that the person was a “non-threat”. If you did then your use of force would have been unreasonable, therefore illegal.

You cannot be expected to use clairvoyance to “see” what the other person’s intent is or to try to deduce what their state of mind is at the time or perform a full body physical exam to find out what their physical limitations might be. You have to use the information you have at hand in order to make the best decision possible and then follow through on that decision without hesitation.

I’m sure it would be difficult to learn afterward that you just shot some challenged guy from 2 blocks over who would never hurt a fly. Nobody WANTS to shoot someone, even a BG (that is, IF they’re in their right mind). That’s why you have to decide now what the parameters you’ll be looking for in order to initiate your DF response so that if the time comes you can honestly tell yourself that you did the best you could.

BUT you have to do that without getting yourself killed in the process because you were being OVERLY cautious

By the time you do that, the person will have shot and killed you.

We are not law enforcement officers. We have no duty to issue multiple verbal commands. Our duty is to protect ourselves. If someone is breaking into my home, I have EVERY REASON to believe they intend to harm me and my family. They made that decision, not me, I have no reason to feel guilty for protecting my family.

Hesitation like you are describing is what gets people killed.

Exactly.

Sylvain, have you ever heard of the OODA Loop.

I’m sure the concept goes by other names but this is the one that sticks with me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “action is always faster than reaction”. That’s what the OODA loop is.

Basically, every action you take has some small amount of processing time involved. The more choices you have the longer it takes to decide which option to choose. Once you DECIDE to wait until the BG complies or not, or to see if he has a weapon or not or…whatever, to have interrupted your OODA loop & will have to start from the beginning again…which takes time. You will hesitate just long enough to see what he is going to do next.

If the BG doesn’t comply &/or has a weapon & has already decided to use it based on his OBSERVATION of your actions (because he’s processing his own OODA loop at the same time) you most likely won’t be able to counter-act his attack. You could die.

It depends on what happen of course, if the guy who breaks in is armed with a gun and point it at me I would shoot him with no hesitation right away without any verbal command.

If he's unarmed and im far away from me then I would give him verbal commands.That wouldnt be hesitation, just me deciding that its right to give this guy a last chance before taking his life.

I’m not saying that you’re wrong (& I MAY do the same thing) but if he’s in your house unless you are on a different floor or you live in a mansion the BG isn’t going to be THAT far away from you.

You still have to DECIDE on what to do based on the OBSERVATION of what the BG is going to do.

If you’ve heard of the Tueller Drill, this is what that drill is based on. It states that if a BG is within 21 ft then there is almost no way you can pull a gun (or possibly even just raise it if it’s already out of the holster) & stop the BG from injuring you.

I would command him to get on the ground and I would then call 911 to have him arrested.

No need to take his life if is not a direct threat to me.And no I dont think that a burglar laying on my floor with a gun pointing at him while the police is coming is a threat to me.

I agree. If you can get them to actually lie on the floor.

I’d say most BG’s (from the many stories I’ve read) will either try to get the heck out of there or attack you. Very few will just lie down. The problem is you don’t know which flavor of BG you’re going to get, the “runner” or the “fighter”. Not to mention that one could easily become the other in a split second which could cause you to end up dead.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating just killing every person who might try to enter your home illegally. I strongly lean in that direction, though, without some VERY overt evidence that they have broken off the attack (gettin’ the heck outta Dodge) before I act to stop the attack myself.

By the time you see their gun its too late. If someone knowingly breaks into an occupied home, they are there to hurt someone.

Waiting for them to gain entry is one thing, there are lots of reasonable arguments for that. But taking time to evaluate them AFTER they have smashed your door down to see if you THINK they pose a threat to you is asinine. YOU aren't the one who decided to take a life, THEY are.

I am not trying to be mean, but I REALLY REALLY REALLY suggest you go get some training. NO respectable trainer would tell you to do that.

If you haven't made the decision to shoot now, you won't do it when the time comes. This has been well proven. If you are planning on going through all of these ifs-ands-ors-buts now, when it actually happens you will be as well off as a Vogon requesting permission to defend himself by submitting the necessary forms. You are going to make some anti-gunner very happy by being killed with a gun in your hand (don't think there aren't anti-gunners that nasty).

To quote Sheriff Ken Campbell (paraphrased of course): "Don't assume your attacker is going to be a man, and don't assume your attacker is going to be an adult. Those assumptions will cause hesitation and get you killed".

He is talking about BRIEF hesitation many might suffer when surprised by being attacked by a woman or youth. He is instructing you to prepare yourself NOW to shoot a woman or a youth so you don't hesitate when the time comes. There is definitely no time to try to determine if someone who just broke your door down has a weapon or not, nor does it matter if they have a weapon.

Good post.

 

[Sylvain]

Thanks Finity for your good post.
I guess some people will gladly shoot and kill anybody when they legally can, some others like myself will wait the very last moment to shoot.
I guess you have to find the right balance bewteen the two.And I understand that you can never be sure if its the right thing to do when its happening so fast.Only afterwards you will now if you did thing.