MCFG Has an RO?

[chizzle]

After the next meeting, I am sure the club officers will take care of this matter and ensure the members are no longer pestered by our presence. I don't see this as punishment, but a way to POSSIBLY prevent anything from happening that could get the club closed down, which could easily happen in today's climate.

Que,
Thanks for trying to show the logic around why the Safety Officer program was created. It's hard to see people view our volunteers as "punishment", when there are so many people who have volunteered their time to make our range safer and better. I only hope that the members of our club understand that we're working through some issues (and should have them resolved next Tuesday), but our overall goal is to make the range a better, safer place for all our members and guests.
Sincerely,
Chuck

 

[rimfire_crazed]

I honestly do not mind the presence of a safety officer. I've had several discussions with board members in this regard after witnessing numerous safety violations including muzzle sweeps, attempting to shoot trap from the trap pads while others were using the pistol range, etc.

That being said, I'm reasonably certain that based on previous experience with one individual and the incidents described in this thread that this is probably isolated to one guy.

Where I really begin to get frustrated is when new rules are adopted and not published to the membership. These kinds of things should be front and center on the club website and if/when a new rule is adopted it should go out in an email blast. Email is FREE. Time to send is MINIMAL. There's really no excuse. I'm still confused as to the "new back bench" rules, or why anyone even thought they were needed.

I have a school obligation next Tuesday or I'd be at the meeting.

 

[chizzle]

MCFG Members,
I posted this in the other thread too, but I wanted to make sure everybody saw this. I just created a Poll regarding this issue, and I would appreciate it if you would take the time to vote. My goal here is to get the general feel for how well people like our SO program, and to get some usable suggestions on what we can do to make it better.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lp_me_improve_our_safety_officer_program.html

Sincerely,
Chuck

 

[octalman]

Below is the text of letter sent to MCFG President and Safety Coordinator. Strictly my experience and opinion.

Gentlemen,

Just found the thread discussing volunteer RO's at the Range. Safety while shooting is an extremely important issue. Wish I could attend the next meeting to discuss. Unfortunately, between job and increased elder care demands on my time evenings are gone and range visits limited to a couple in the last year. However, during a recent visit with my wife we encountered a RO, although at the time there was no identification as such. We both knew the gentleman from Saturday Bowling Pin events. Entirely pleasant experience the way he informed us of recent changes to steel target placement restrictions.

Felt this issue is important enough to provide input via email in lieu of a meeting. Participation in Friday Night Steel and Saturday Bowling Pins provides good re-enforcement of safety procedures. Hearing the safety briefing before each event and observing the conduct of each event is an excellent aid to shooters developing good safety habits. Never observed any surprise moves by the RO's that would startle a shooter. Safety was firmly enforced, but never in a heavy handed manner. Suggestions were offered when requested. Never saw any "do it my way" from an RO. Unfortunately, my participation experience in Friday Night Steel and Satuday Bowling Pins dates back almost a year. Would hope there have been no major changes in the safety process at those events.

Another Range/Club I considered joining before MCFG required new members to attend a meeting and participate in a Club event prior to final membership approval. Maybe something to consider for MCFG to get new members started on the right foot regarding safety?

While most of the complaints voiced on INGO were likely fueled by Internet Testosterone, the description of an RO surprising someone with a gun in hand is very troubling. If accurately described, surprising a shooter does not improve safety. It can escalate a minor issue into a deadly situation.

I have enough gray hairs to remember when Atterbury was just dirt berms with small covered shooting stations. No supervision at all. Witnessed enough Cowboys doing stupid things I quit going. Been to the new Atterbury a few times since the update and RO staffing. Never saw any reason to complain about the RO's. If firm enforcement of safety rules to make sure eveyone goes home without any additional holes is too restrictive, I would be very happy for the complainers to find another place to shoot. Same goes for MCFG. As a member that plans to continue membership and participation in events, I prefer those that are offended by the concept of volunteer ROs to go elsewhere. Sorry, my safety trumps hurt feelings.

Thanks,

 

[FordMan79]

I am generally ok with an RO. As most of us can agree on here safety is never a bad thing. What I don't like is to be being told to do something by an RO that from what I am reading is not in the rule book nor unsafe.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I didn't say anything back b/c I honestly didn't know if there was a new rule against what I was doing that I wasn't aware. I am very much a rule follower so it bothered when I thought that I broken a rule.

Is it against the rules to pick up an open case (cloth case with zipper) with an unloaded rifle, hot range, bolt open, and clip removed? I was told that I had to close the case before I was allowed to move the case. I was moving the case from the south side of the range to the north side. I was placing the rifle on the bench when he said something so it is not like he couldn't see the bolt open nor did he say anything about the bolt and I had the clip in my hand. In my mind moving the weapon in the case (open or not) unloaded and bolt open, is safer than having the rifle in my hand walking down the firing line.

Exact words " Hey buddy you can't walk around with an a weapon in an open case".

He was a younger guy so I don't think he is the one that has gotten alot of complaints on here.

 

[Que]

I am generally ok with an RO. As most of us can agree on here safety is never a bad thing. What I don't like is to be being told to do something by an RO that from what I am reading is not in the rule book nor unsafe.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I didn't say anything back b/c I honestly didn't know if there was a new rule against what I was doing that I wasn't aware. I am very much a rule follower so it bothered when I thought that I broken a rule.

Is it against the rules to pick up an open case (cloth case with zipper) with an unloaded rifle, hot range, bolt open, and clip removed? I was told that I had to close the case before I was allowed to move the case. I was moving the case from the south side of the range to the north side. I was placing the rifle on the bench when he said something so it is not like he couldn't see the bolt open nor did he say anything about the bolt and I had the clip in my hand. In my mind moving the weapon in the case (open or not) unloaded and bolt open, is safer than having the rifle in my hand walking down the firing line.

Exact words " Hey buddy you can't walk around with an a weapon in an open case".

He was a younger guy so I don't think he is the one that has gotten alot of complaints on here.

FordMan, I wasn't there and don't know in what direction your barrel was pointed, but we were taught in the class that rifles and handguns should be moved in closed cases or holstered. It's very much like in an Appleseed course. You may very well know the weapon is safe, but for the person who has the barrel pointed at them and can see it, it could possibly be a bit disconcerting.

 

[chizzle]

I am generally ok with an RO. As most of us can agree on here safety is never a bad thing. What I don't like is to be being told to do something by an RO that from what I am reading is not in the rule book nor unsafe.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I didn't say anything back b/c I honestly didn't know if there was a new rule against what I was doing that I wasn't aware. I am very much a rule follower so it bothered when I thought that I broken a rule.

Is it against the rules to pick up an open case (cloth case with zipper) with an unloaded rifle, hot range, bolt open, and clip removed? I was told that I had to close the case before I was allowed to move the case. I was moving the case from the south side of the range to the north side. I was placing the rifle on the bench when he said something so it is not like he couldn't see the bolt open nor did he say anything about the bolt and I had the clip in my hand. In my mind moving the weapon in the case (open or not) unloaded and bolt open, is safer than having the rifle in my hand walking down the firing line.

Exact words " Hey buddy you can't walk around with an a weapon in an open case".

He was a younger guy so I don't think he is the one that has gotten alot of complaints on here.

The person you encountered this morning was me. At matches and during normal business hours, we treat uncased / open rifle cases the same. If you are handling a rifle and sweep someone with the muzzle (whether or not it is unloaded) it is breaking the rule that mentions "do not let your muzzle cover something you don't want to distroy." If the case is laying open and I can see your muzzle, I would say that applies.

The moral of this story is to take whatever time necessary to properly and completely store your weapon. There is no upside from a safety perspective to having the rifle "mostly" cased.

 

[FordMan79]

Chizzle, Where I don't agree with you 100% on the case closed part (with case open you can see that the gun is clear) and I disagree 100% that carrying a cased rifle is handling the rifle. I get your point now, but I think that might have been a better thing to say than "Hey buddy..." and walk off.

 

[FordMan79]

Que,
Believe me I am the first one to get on to someone for sweeping people with a weapon, but I generally don't get upset if someone sweeps me with their cased gun. What about being not zipped up all the way makes it unsafe? I am just looking to get some understanding. What is the reason in the appleseed course teaches specifically that a open case is unsafe?

 

[Que]

Que,
Believe me I am the first one to get on to someone for sweeping people with a weapon, but I generally don't get upset if someone sweeps me with their cased gun. What about being not zipped up all the way makes it unsafe? I am just looking to get some understanding. What is the reason in the appleseed course teaches specifically that a open case is unsafe?

FordMan, not meaning to sound flippant, but honestly I've never asked. I was told that was the standard and I've done it. I guess it's simply about standards.

 

[FordMan79]

Fair enough. Honestly I was just surprised that someone would get onto me for how far my zipper was...

FordMan, not meaning to sound flippant, but honestly I've never asked. I was told that was the standard and I've done it. I guess it's simply about standards.

 

[chizzle]

Chizzle, Where I don't agree with you 100% on the case closed part (with case open you can see that the gun is clear) and I disagree 100% that carrying a cased rifle is handling the rifle. I get your point now, but I think that might have been a better thing to say than "Hey buddy..." and walk off.

These types of situations are hard for SO's, myself included. I was trying to be nice and help keep you from getting suspended for breaking a rule, now it appears that this backfired and I am having to justify my behavior on a public forum. The other option was filling out a safety concern form and seeing you at the next meeting. If you would like to talk about this more please attend the meeting.

While I understand it might have been better (for you) if I had stopped and had a more thorough discussion of the rules with you, the reality was that I just didn't have the time to give since I was sighting in a pistol and fixing some targets for Friday Night Steel before heading off to a friend's wedding.

 

[Que]

Fair enough. Honestly I was just surprised that someone would get onto me for how far my zipper was...

I would go to the range with another guy on here who is a trustee on the board. He would make safety corrections in a VERY nice way and he would have people get in his face about it. Some would disregard his correction, until he came back with the little pink piece of paper and tell them he was a trustee. Most members gave up on self-policing because members would get so upset. So, some of us were give those god-awful acidic yellow vests and caps to wear to make the correction more formal.

 

[FordMan79]

First thing I did when I got home was download the newest rule book and read it and did a word search for the word "case". I was unable to find the rule that I was being disciplined, which is the reason for my post and it seems others on this thread as well. Please point me to the rule about carrying a cased weapon (unloaded and bolt open) with the case closed vs. open on the firing line and I will gladly comply. My whole problem, stated from the beginning of my posts, is that I can't find that in the rule in the book. The reason I posted my question on a public forum was I wanted help in understanding the rules since you were too busy to help educate me.

Lastly I don't think I am going to come to a meeting. For the simple fact that you are threatening to suspend me over the fact the zipper on my case wasn't fully up. That makes me believe that it would almost impossible to get a fair decision/ruling. Especially since I am just a nobody member and it would be my word against a SO.

These types of situations are hard for SO's, myself included. I was trying to be nice and help keep you from getting suspended for breaking a rule, now it appears that this backfired and I am having to justify my behavior on a public forum. The other option was filling out a safety concern form and seeing you at the next meeting. If you would like to talk about this more please attend the meeting.

While I understand it might have been better (for you) if I had stopped and had a more thorough discussion of the rules with you, the reality was that I just didn't have the time to give since I was sighting in a pistol and fixing some targets for Friday Night Steel before heading off to a friend's wedding.

 

[FordMan79]

Just b/c others are jerks doesn't mean you have to be a jerk back and having a yellow vest won't stop those people from being jerks.

It is probably b/c I only go to the range a couple of times month, but 99.999999% of the people I have meet there are great and safe people (including yourself who I meet once) so it is hard for me to believe there is such a big problem. You obviously have more time and experiences at MCFG so I will bow to your opinion on the need for more adult supervision. I am just disappointed my first experience with the new RO/SO program was not a positive one.

I would go to the range with another guy on here who is a trustee on the board. He would make safety corrections in a VERY nice way and he would have people get in his face about it. Some would disregard his correction, until he came back with the little pink piece of paper and tell them he was a trustee. Most members gave up on self-policing because members would get so upset. So, some of us were give those god-awful acidic yellow vests and caps to wear to make the correction more formal.

 

[rockhopper46038]

First thing I did when I got home was download the newest rule book and read it and did a word search for the word "case". I was unable to find the rule that I was being disciplined, which is the reason for my post and it seems others on this thread as well. Please point me to the rule about carrying a cased weapon (unloaded and bolt open) with the case closed vs. open on the firing line and I will gladly comply. My whole problem, stated from the beginning of my posts, is that I can't find that in the rule in the book. The reason I posted my question on a public forum was I wanted help in understanding the rules since you were too busy to help educate me.

Lastly I don't think I am going to come to a meeting. For the simple fact that you are threatening to suspend me over the fact the zipper on my case wasn't fully up. That makes me believe that it would almost impossible to get a fair decision/ruling. Especially since I am just a nobody member and it would be my word against a SO.

I'm betting the reference is to revision 4.7.12, rule #7 in the new rules posted on the website: "All firearms must be cased or holstered when on club property except on the firing line as part of the shooting process".

I guess my practice of laying my various firearms on the firing line bench, unloaded, action locked back, no magazine in the firearm, while shooting a different firearm downrange would break this new rule, so I will have to modify my shooting methodology. I will try to attend on Tuesday to see if this is in fact the intent of the new rule, to require only one weapon be uncased on the firing line at a time.

 

[WebSnyper]

Que,
Believe me I am the first one to get on to someone for sweeping people with a weapon, but I generally don't get upset if someone sweeps me with their cased gun. What about being not zipped up all the way makes it unsafe? I am just looking to get some understanding. What is the reason in the appleseed course teaches specifically that a open case is unsafe?

Possibly that the gun can fall from the case or that someone could still pull a trigger on an open cased gun.

I've always considered a holstered or cased (case closed) to be good to go to remove from the firing line, but not a gun in an open case, etc. To me an open cased gun is kind of like one in a holster that doesn't cover the trigger properly. And generally a gun that falls will not fire due to internal firing pin blocks, etc but people tend to try and reach for a gun that is falling and that can lead to all kinds of issues.

 

[chizzle]

I'm betting the reference is to revision 4.7.12, rule #7 in the new rules posted on the website: "All firearms must be cased or holstered when on club property except on the firing line as part of the shooting process".

I guess my practice of laying my various firearms on the firing line bench, unloaded, action locked back, no magazine in the firearm, while shooting a different firearm downrange would break this new rule, so I will have to modify my shooting methodology. I will try to attend on Tuesday to see if this is in fact the intent of the new rule, to require only one weapon be uncased on the firing line at a time.

You would be fine with multiple firearms on the front bench. The Board's intention was to ensure folks were bringing firearms on and off the line cased. Unfortunately, no matter how precisely you try to write the rules, you always have some folks that want to read between the lines or argue for an exception.

I'm just 1 member of a 7 member Board, so I try to tell folks how the Board intends the rules to read. Sometimes it is a catch-22 dealing with some members who want to argue the meaning of the rules (even though I wrote the rule book and worked with the Board to approve it after several months of member review).

I am afraid that cases like this (getting bent out of shape when someone tries to help you, then not coming to a meeting to discuss it) can create a jaded mentality with Safety Officers and members of the Board. Unfortunately, situations like this one have burned me out and are the reason I will be stepping off the Board on January 1.

 

[drillsgt]

John, there are several volunteer ROs at MCFG and I happen to be one of them. With the large number of new members, we began experiencing a number of safety violations, including members shooting .223, 7.62x39 and other calibers not on the approved list.

I'm not sure what happened, but we are only volunteering in order to free of incidents that could jeopardize the range from continuing to remain open.

This was good to know, glad I found this as .223 and .308 are the only rifle calibers I shoot. MCFG would not be the range for me even though it sounds nice, thanks for putting this out.

 

[chizzle]

Possibly that the gun can fall from the case or that someone could still pull a trigger on an open cased gun.

I've always considered a holstered or cased (case closed) to be good to go to remove from the firing line, but not a gun in an open case, etc. To me an open cased gun is kind of like one in a holster that doesn't cover the trigger properly. And generally a gun that falls will not fire due to internal firing pin blocks, etc but people tend to try and reach for a gun that is falling and that can lead to all kinds of issues.

You pretty much nailed it. Having disqualified folks from matches for dropping their gun on the ground (and thus sweeping a bunch of people) I do my best to head off problems when possible.