Michigan teenager shot during traffic stop

[phylodog]

I'm against zero-thought policies, too, generally.

I think a little more thought from the officer and the department about what the goal was - and how to reach it - would've been better for everyone.

And then there's Hough's point about potentially more badguys on the way. Surely the department didn't expect this officer to go it alone against multiple bad guys? It is about priorities, right?

What made getting the kid out of the car a higher priority than getting backup there?



So what blame does the officer receive from you?

He should have either stepped back farther before deploying the Taser or removed the cartridge and used a drive stun. That's pretty much it. The remainder of the outcome rests with the suspect, as they most often times do. If the kid had handed his DL and registration out the window like a reasonable human being he would have been on his way in minutes. The kid chose not to and the officer escalated as can be expected.

 

[Denny347]

I'm against zero-thought policies, too, generally.

I think a little more thought from the officer and the department about what the goal was - and how to reach it - would've been better for everyone.

And then there's Hough's point about potentially more badguys on the way. Surely the department didn't expect this officer to go it alone against multiple bad guys? It is about priorities, right?

What made getting the kid out of the car a higher priority than getting backup there?



So what blame does the officer receive from you?

I can tell you that there are 1 million thoughts going through your head in these instances and we try making the best decisions we can at the time. Should'a could'a would'a, if the officer really thought that his friends were on the way, he did what I would have done, get him out quickly, cuff him, load him up in the car, and relocate STAT. Leave the car there and tow it later when things cool off. I get this all the time in my area. Arrests in public and friends call the suspect's family. Next thing we know, we have the entire extended family and friends causing hell. We load them up and drive away to wait for a wagon at a "secret" location. An officer who has never experienced this may never think to do this and handle the OP differently. You change the officer's past experiences and a response that once looked unreasonable, becomes reasonable.

 

[Denny347]

He should have either stepped back farther before deploying the Taser or removed the cartridge and used a drive stun. That's pretty much it. The remainder of the outcome rests with the suspect, as they most often times do. If the kid had handed his DL and registration out the window like a reasonable human being he would have been on his way in minutes. The kid chose not to and the officer escalated as can be expected.

GlockRock brought up a good point, we used to train to drive stun but just VERY recently we have moved to contact (or near contact) deployment in the shoulder or the butt then move immediately to "drive stun" with the cartridge on in the opposite location on the body. This allows the neuromusclular disruption to work. Do not be surprised to see old fashioned drive stunning to go the way of the Dodo bird by G.O.This is so new that most PD's are not even teaching it yet so it not applicable here.

 

[Dead Duck]

Ya -
Maybe the cop should have just walked away. What is the worst that could have happened?

Law Enforcement Officer Killings Nearly Double in 2014 After Few Slain in 2013: FBI - NBC News

 

[EdC]

I pray that they don't do something stupid like this kid. That's a long way around to say that I realized I would feel significantly less sympathy if this had been a 40 something Michigan Militia type dude. This 19 year old was legally an adult, but seriously not able to comprehend the ramifications of his actions.

Typo, I think, Guilford was 17. I think you're right as to not being able to fully comprehend the ramifications of his actions. I wonder how much pain, fear and panic had to do with what he did. What he did wasn't the act of a person acting rationally. As far as we know, Guilford didn't have a rep for fighting. Developmentally, there's supposed to be a lot of changes happening to a 17 year old brain.

The statement in the official report regarding the Michigan Militia are interesting. IMHO, it's probably whitwash thrown up after the fact by Frost and the prosecutor. Now, if there had been relatively recent occurrences of militia threats, different story. Right now, I think the alleged militia concerns is either BS or paranoia. Frost may have had some experiences to the contrary, but somehow I doubt that. If there were, it would sure as heck be in the report.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

That was some Sovie crap right there. Argue with the cop and then lure him into a fight.

The kid had Boston T. Party books and ties to Sovies I am guessing.

 

[rengler22]

For the crime of...

Kid was asked no fewer than 8 times for his license and registration of which he continued to refuse. Kid must have had a death wish.

For the crime of failure to identify, you are hereby sentenced, to death.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

For the crime of failure to identify, you are hereby sentenced, to death.

No, the crime of Battery Causing Serious Bodily Injury.

http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/Eaton-County-Releases-Photos-of-Officers-Injuries-307979961.html

Cops are entitled to self-defense.

 

[churchmouse]

For the crime of failure to identify, you are hereby sentenced, to death.

Way to come out swinging new guy.

Read the entire thread. Lots in here.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

For the crime of failure to identify, you are hereby sentenced, to death.

Helluva first post. You'll fit right in.

 

[Dead Duck]

For the crime of failure to identify, you are hereby sentenced, to death.

You'll like this place -

General Political Discussion

 

[rengler22]

Way to come out swinging new guy.

Read the entire thread. Lots in here.

I read every single post in the entire thread. I was poking fun at the absurdity of that particular poster's statement, but feel free to assume about me what you'd like. That particular poster indicated the kid must have had a death wish for not identifying himself. Are you contending that his failure to identify is what constituted the use of deadly force? Or was it when he assaulted the officer? Hence, my pointing out that the post was ridiculous. He didn't die because he didn't identify, did he?

 

[phylodog]

I read every single post in the entire thread. I was poking fun at the absurdity of that particular poster's statement, but feel free to assume about me what you'd like. That particular poster indicated the kid must have had a death wish for not identifying himself. Are you contending that his failure to identify is what constituted the use of deadly force? Or was it when he assaulted the officer? Hence, my pointing out that the post was ridiculous. He didn't die because he didn't identify, did he?

For future reference, sarcasm is usually typed with a purple font. Avoids confusion.

 

[churchmouse]

I read every single post in the entire thread. I was poking fun at the absurdity of that particular poster's statement, but feel free to assume about me what you'd like. That particular poster indicated the kid must have had a death wish for not identifying himself. Are you contending that his failure to identify is what constituted the use of deadly force? Or was it when he assaulted the officer? Hence, my pointing out that the post was ridiculous. He didn't die because he didn't identify, did he?

I assume nothing. I was responding to your 1st ever post in the forum as was a few others.
A lot of new guys will jump in without reading back. Just making sure.....

The kid died because he failed to comply and then went off the reservation. Had he just complied then yeah, he might well still be among us.
The whole thing was full of fail.

 

[kickbacked]

I actually flashed my lights at an officer this year. He must of been sitting on an angle because it looked like his brights were on and i have a large pickup so for me to be blinded it seemed like he had his brights on. He just flipped his brights on me and we went on our way. I just consider it common courtesy.

As far as being tased, you dont think right in that situation. Your bodys natural instinct is to get the hell away from the source of pain. This officer made a mountain out of a mole hill. Its easy to be a monday morning quarterback and say well he should of just given him his license and he'd still be here. As a police officer you should be a grown ass man, able to handle a kid laying on the ground. If you cant handle a 17 year old with the training classes you take, the mace, taser, baton, and any other less lethal forms of protection you should probably find a new job. At the end of the day a kid was pulled over for flashing his lights, when he tried making a phone call he was kicked and tased. At what point is it ok for a citizen to start fearing for their own life?

 

[GlockRock]

I actually flashed my lights at an officer this year. He must of been sitting on an angle because it looked like his brights were on and i have a large pickup so for me to be blinded it seemed like he had his brights on. He just flipped his brights on me and we went on our way. I just consider it common courtesy.

As far as being tased, you dont think right in that situation. Your bodys natural instinct is to get the hell away from the source of pain. This officer made a mountain out of a mole hill. Its easy to be a monday morning quarterback and say well he should of just given him his license and he'd still be here. As a police officer you should be a grown ass man, able to handle a kid laying on the ground. If you cant handle a 17 year old with the training classes you take, the mace, taser, baton, and any other less lethal forms of protection you should probably find a new job. At the end of the day a kid was pulled over for flashing his lights, when he tried making a phone call he was kicked and tased. At what point is it ok for a citizen to start fearing for their own life?

Have you been tased to know what it feels like and how your body reacts?

 

[phylodog]

The officer acted predictably and within the law. The kid did not.

 

[kickbacked]

Have you been tased to know what it feels like and how your body reacts?

Ive "rode the lightning" 3 times with police issued tasers. All of them were with the cartridge off so i can only speak to that. 2 of them were directly on my back, the first one to my shoulder so i could get a feel for it. At least for me my natural instinct is to get away from pain. I was standing so i stepped off. had i been pinned on the ground with no where to go i can assure you itd of been like a bull in a china shop trying to get out.

 

[GlockRock]

Ive "rode the lightning" 3 times with police issued tasers. All of them were with the cartridge off so i can only speak to that. 2 of them were directly on my back, the first one to my shoulder so i could get a feel for it. At least for me my natural instinct is to get away from pain. I was standing so i stepped off. had i been pinned on the ground with no where to go i can assure you itd of been like a bull in a china shop trying to get out.

Being hit with probes is a completely different feeling.

 

[kickbacked]

Being hit with probes is a completely different feeling.

Right, i completely understand that. However what does my experience with tasers have to do with a 17 year old getting killed? It is my understanding that for the cartridge to work effectively that the leads need to space out a bit. From point blank range that would lead me to believe that the full immobilizing potential was not there because they did not have time to spread.