Michigan teenager shot during traffic stop

[T.Lex]

I'll agree with this, he probably should have removed the cartridge and utilized it via direct contact given the proximity.

Hey looky there - a training/doctrine consideration.

I'm willing to listen to suggestions you would have.

Since you asked - my understanding is that he had requested backup, but did not wait for it to arrive before getting the kid out of the car. By then, the kid was obviously unruly and an asshat.

I do not know how urban or rural that place is, but around here, waiting for backup would not take an unreasonable amount of time. Plus, the kid won't identify, so the traffic stop can continue as long as it needs to. (Even ignoring the failure to identify as a separate RAS/PC.) It was a stalemate, sorta, but the officer has all the time (and overtime) he needs. "Kid, you're not free to go until you identify. And, when my backup gets here, we're getting you out of the car anyway."

Let me be clear about what I'm NOT saying: another officer does not guarantee the kid survives the encounter.

What I am saying is that with another officer's help at an earlier stage of escalation, THIS officer may not have felt the need to for the final escalation. One officer on his back couldn't keep the kid down, but 2 would've been much more difficult.

ETA:
IMHO, this needs to be addressed at a training/policy/doctrine level, if for no other reason than it is likely to become more frequent. No indication that this kind of cop block stuff is getting LESS popular.

 

[JeffINGunner]

Kid was asked no fewer than 8 times for his license and registration of which he continued to refuse. Kid must have had a death wish.

 

[EdC]

Having your brights on within 500ft of oncoming traffic is illegal, there is no duration attached to the code. High beam are either on or off. Hence, illegal.

http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=32217

Traffic Talk: When should you turn on headlights, high beams and blinkers? | MLive.com
"Michigan law prevents motorists from using high beams when there is an oncoming vehicle within 500 feet, but in the absence of approaching traffic, nothing in the law specifically prevents drivers from flashing vehicles that are travelling in the same direction."

Good citation to article, and something I heard before. From the article:

According to the Michigan Vehicle Code: “Whenever the driver of a vehicle approaches an oncoming vehicle within 500 feet, such driver shall use a distribution of light or composite beam so aimed that the glaring rays are not projected into the eyes of the oncoming driver.”

That particular section of the code doesn't distinguish between "low beams" or "hi beams." In other words, if your "low beams" are out of adjustment and cause a distribution of light so aimed that the glaring rays are projected into the eyes of the oncoming driver" that is an infraction as well. Just like Jonathan Frost's 2015 Ford Explorer patrol vehicle was doing.

Deven Guilford ask to see Frost's badge number. Frost told him he couldn't show it to him. Technically true, as in Eaton, the badge number is not printed on the badge. See page 3 of this report. http://www.eatoncounty.org/images/D...ney/Press_Releases/Guilford_Press_Release.pdf


Frost was being a smart a** and got into a p***ing contest with a 17 year old who wasn't respecting his authority.
Frost called for backup, but instead of waiting, got in a real hurry to show Guilford who was boss.

Now a stupid kid is dead. I don't think Frost is guilty of murder, but I sure don't want cops like him around, either.

 

[GlockRock]

I'll throw my unqualified answer. Tazer training. Sounds like effective range training might have helped

The taser training course includes "effective range training". It is an important part of the course and is a test question if I remember correctly.
There's no doubt that that close range played some part of the ineffectiveness of the taser. The bigger the spread of the probes the more muscles that are affected leading to a better chance of incapacitation. Using the taser at a close range, such as this incident, is most likely not going to be as effective as a 6-8 foot range. It is, however, still a taught practice. When I went through my first user class for the taser X26 we were taught to take the cartridge off at close range and use a drive stun to the suspect. This is STRICTLY pain compliance and no incapacitation. I used this once after a foot chase in the woods after I caught the guy. All it did was **** him off more. It took me forever to find my cartridge that I removed after the fight was over and the guy was handcuffed. Now, the new method, and one that I teach in my classes (I'm a taser instructor) is the "staple" method. Rather than remove the cartridge and do a pain compliance drive stun, we shot the probes into the suspects at a point blank range. This give a spread of approximately one inch, but can cause some sort of incapacitation. If not effective immediately the officer is to take the taser, with the expended cartridge still attached, and drive it into another part of the body (3 point follow up) causing a larger spread and affecting the muscles between the probes and the taser.
I demonstrate the "staple" method on students during every class. I've yet to have anyone fight through it, especially with the 3 point follow up.

 

[Thor]

I don't really consider anyone who is released to travel the public pathways with a 2 ton battering ram to be a 'kid' or 'child' regardless the advertised age of majority. If he wasn't old enough to own his actions then he should not have been able to drive.

I have also seen purported 'cell phones' that were tazers and/or firearms. Regardless their prevalence I wouldn't necessarily trust a stranger, especially one who is acting unreasonable, with the benefit of the doubt of that highly unlikely possibility. He might just be the kind of person to seek that sort of weapon out.

 

[long coat]

I'm not sure what vehicle the LEO had, but our new Ford Interceptor SUV's have really bright lights in them. Several of us are getting flashed nightly with them on dim.

Have you or someone else taken it to the shop and made sure they are aimed correctly?

 

[phylodog]

Hey looky there - a training/doctrine consideration.



Since you asked - my understanding is that he had requested backup, but did not wait for it to arrive before getting the kid out of the car. By then, the kid was obviously unruly and an asshat.

I do not know how urban or rural that place is, but around here, waiting for backup would not take an unreasonable amount of time. Plus, the kid won't identify, so the traffic stop can continue as long as it needs to. (Even ignoring the failure to identify as a separate RAS/PC.) It was a stalemate, sorta, but the officer has all the time (and overtime) he needs. "Kid, you're not free to go until you identify. And, when my backup gets here, we're getting you out of the car anyway."

Don't have anything to disagree with in there. I will say that to address things like waiting for back you almost always need to include a "when possible" in there. There are times when it is simply not practical. For us, those times are pretty rare but before the merger I handled a domestic or two with back 20 minutes away.

 

[HoughMade]

Don't have anything to disagree with in there. I will say that to address things like waiting for back you almost always need to include a "when possible" in there. There are times when it is simply not practical. For us, those times are pretty rare but before the merger I handled a domestic or two with back 20 minutes away.

From the prosecutor's report, it appears the officer was afraid that the subject had called for his own "back up" and wanted to have the subject controlled before they got there in case he had to deal with others.

 

[churchmouse]

Kid was asked no fewer than 8 times for his license and registration of which he continued to refuse. Kid must have had a death wish.

Did he have a valid license to begin with...???

 

[HoughMade]

Did he have a valid license to begin with...???

Not with him. It was at his girlfriend's house which is probably why he got stupid when asked for it.

 

[T.Lex]

Don't have anything to disagree with in there. I will say that to address things like waiting for back you almost always need to include a "when possible" in there. There are times when it is simply not practical. For us, those times are pretty rare but before the merger I handled a domestic or two with back 20 minutes away.

Well sure - but it is worth being clear about even that. The kid's asshattery does not make an exigent circumstance (to borrow a phrase out of context). Call the wrecker, since it is unlikely the kid will get to drive home. Heck, get an ambulance en route, since The Hard Way usually comes with a hospital wristband for the cost of admission.

If it is worth dying or killing for, it is probably worth waiting 20 mins for backup (to reduce the risk of either).

And obviously, if the kid is trying to drive away (or other permutations of asshattery), that turns into a different kettle of fish.

 

[GlockRock]

Have you or someone else taken it to the shop and made sure they are aimed correctly?

I have not. We have 8 2015 models and mine is a 2014. We are all experiencing it on night shift. If I really thought it was the lights being out of alignment I would have had mine checked. I think it's just the new style of light and it's just really bright. I find it hard to believe that 9 cars purchased at different dealers and at different times all have the same issue of misaligned headlights.

 

[T.Lex]

From the prosecutor's report, it appears the officer was afraid that the subject had called for his own "back up" and wanted to have the subject controlled before they got there in case he had to deal with others.

See - even that seems subject to criticism. If he was that worried about the black hat gang showing up (no offense to people with black hats), wouldn't it be more prudent to ask for the backup to come faster? Getting a non-compliant person out of the car, where there is more opportunity for the non-compliance to get ugly, just in time for more bad guys to show up to see the ugliness, seems like a lesson in not thinking things through.

I know people laugh at Carmel PD for having multiple cars on the scene of "ordinary" stops, but geez... there's a value to it, too.

Also, in another discussion of this, I had an epiphany to one of by own biases on this particular video. I have kids just a bit younger than this kid. I have done my best to teach them to be respectful, even if they think the officer is "wrong." We'll deal with that later. Swallow your pride, and do what you're asked, while saying as little as possible. (I have daughters, so it gets a bit complicated if things go a certain direction, but you get the idea.) I pray that they don't do something stupid like this kid. That's a long way around to say that I realized I would feel significantly less sympathy if this had been a 40 something Michigan Militia type dude. This 19 year old was legally an adult, but seriously not able to comprehend the ramifications of his actions.

 

[churchmouse]

Not with him. It was at his girlfriend's house which is probably why he got stupid when asked for it.

That was my thoughts. No license on person then you do not have a license.

 

[phylodog]

Well sure - but it is worth being clear about even that. The kid's asshattery does not make an exigent circumstance (to borrow a phrase out of context). Call the wrecker, since it is unlikely the kid will get to drive home. Heck, get an ambulance en route, since The Hard Way usually comes with a hospital wristband for the cost of admission.

If it is worth dying or killing for, it is probably worth waiting 20 mins for backup (to reduce the risk of either).

And obviously, if the kid is trying to drive away (or other permutations of asshattery), that turns into a different kettle of fish.

Waiting isn't always practical and I'd object to stringent standards requiring it. If it's a slow night with nothing going on and plenty of officers working, sure. If things are busy I wouldn't expect officers to drag out a traffic stop and make things worse because a 16 year old kid wants to act like an idiot. Of course my opinion is based on the fact that the kid created this situation and I lay precious little blame on the officer.

 

[long coat]

I have not. We have 8 2015 models and mine is a 2014. We are all experiencing it on night shift. If I really thought it was the lights being out of alignment I would have had mine checked. I think it's just the new style of light and it's just really bright. I find it hard to believe that 9 cars purchased at different dealers and at different times all have the same issue of misaligned headlights.

Same assembly line? They all could be out.

 

[looney2ns]

After 30 years of managing a movie theatre, and dealing with unruly kids. I can say that typically, when the parents arrived to get the guilty kid, you found out real quickly why the kid acted as he/she did. They were taught perfectly by their parents by example.

In all of these LEO shootings, it's really simple actually. Don't be an asshat when the LEO makes contact with you. Kids are not being taught respect.

 

[looney2ns]

I have not. We have 8 2015 models and mine is a 2014. We are all experiencing it on night shift. If I really thought it was the lights being out of alignment I would have had mine checked. I think it's just the new style of light and it's just really bright. I find it hard to believe that 9 cars purchased at different dealers and at different times all have the same issue of misaligned headlights.

I suspect the issue comes from the increased use of the newer halogen bulbs. The color of the light is part of the problem.

 

[T.Lex]

Waiting isn't always practical and I'd object to stringent standards requiring it.

I'm against zero-thought policies, too, generally.

I think a little more thought from the officer and the department about what the goal was - and how to reach it - would've been better for everyone.

And then there's Hough's point about potentially more badguys on the way. Surely the department didn't expect this officer to go it alone against multiple bad guys? It is about priorities, right?

What made getting the kid out of the car a higher priority than getting backup there?

...I lay precious little blame on the officer.

So what blame does the officer receive from you?

 

[Dead Duck]

So what blame does the officer receive from you?

Maybe not shooting him sooner.