Minimum Wage Increase in Chicago

[Twangbanger]

It isn't hard to find the "Chicago Union Person" on this thread, is it?


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/robots-help-amazon-fill-its-holiday-orders/

 

[actaeon277]

That's beginning to get us back to the norm. Adjusted for inflation from 1974, minimum wage should have been $10 / hr. in 2014. Further, if the pay for that minimum wage job increased just a very, very modest $.15 / hr. per year, that job would pay $14.25 in 2014. That's a pretty small raise, and the same raise every year, for 4 decades.

The whole "Oh, well McDonald's and other businesses will just automate everything, and jobs will be lost!" is an emotional response, and a fallacy.

Even if things WERE to get automated, someone at some company would need to sell that automaton, someone would need to build it, someone would need to repair it, and someone would need to fill it with burgers & fries. So, by that 'logic', 1 job would be 'lost', but 4 would be gained. And all likely higher paid than minimum wage. Not a bad trade-off, actually.

Really, to be fair and maintain proper 'pay rate difference', ALL hourly wages in Chicago area should automatically be increased $1.75 / hr. to keep pace with the new increase in minimum wage.

For several decades now, business owners have been getting away with paying well less than a '1974 equivalent' minimum wage. The 'free meal' is over, and it's time to pay the tab, Business Owners.

Really?
Mill I work at used to employ over 30,000 workers.
Now it employs 5,000 workers.
Yet it makes MORE steel than it did before.
Because of........ automation.
Many of those jobs people said...... No on can ever replace this person with a machine. And then they did.

 

[Dosproduction]

It isn't hard to find the "Chicago Union Person" on this thread, is it?


Robots help Amazon fill its holiday orders - CBS News

and who is that?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

As I stood dumbfounded while a checker at the local store tried to figure out how much change to give me on $20.40 for $18.40 of merchandise today, I thought to myself "we should really pay these people more." Instead, I left happily with my $8.40 change.

Had something similar happen earlier this week. Noble Roman's (pizza) had a 30% off coupon for Cyber Monday (if you ordered online). When I went to pick up my pizza, and showed my digital coupon on my phone, the young lady promptly pulled out her calculator and began looking confused. The pizza came to $13.99. I told her that 30% would be $4.20. I even "showed my work" by explaining that 3 x 14 = 42.00... move the decimal point over one place to the left and voila! 30%! She finally gave up and said she would just give me her employee discount (50%), since apparently the register figures that out for them. I was happy about the discount. I was saddened that even with a calculator this young lady couldn't figure out a simple, whole number percentage. I did it in my head. I must be a freaking genius.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

The good thing is that skilled labor can command higher compensation...it's just that you don't need as much of it. Then there's the issue of motivation for obtaining the skills and maintaining proficiency in being a skilled tradesman. Which, if more people possessed that, this discussion might not be such a hardy perennial.

I see what you did there. Extra points for using gardening talk.

 

[Leo]

Had something similar happen earlier this week. Noble Roman's (pizza) had a 30% off coupon for Cyber Monday (if you ordered online). When I went to pick up my pizza, and showed my digital coupon on my phone, the young lady promptly pulled out her calculator and began looking confused. The pizza came to $13.99. I told her that 30% would be $4.20. I even "showed my work" by explaining that 3 x 14 = 42.00... move the decimal point over one place to the left and voila! 30%! She finally gave up and said she would just give me her employee discount (50%), since apparently the register figures that out for them. I was happy about the discount. I was saddened that even with a calculator this young lady couldn't figure out a simple, whole number percentage. I did it in my head. I must be a freaking genius.

I cannot speak for or against the clerk in your case. The old days of the clerk being able to simply enter the price are loong gone. Technology is in control.

Sometimes it is not the lack of ability to figure the math as much as forcing the computerized inventory system to allow it. I used a coupon at Arby's today and the normally competent clerk called the manager over. She had to make about 50 key strokes and use her over ride switch key to correct the price. She was sorry for the delay. SHe said she has been calling the IT people all week as the software was never updated to allow the entering of the advertised special on my coupon. These big corporations use electronics to micro manage to the exact penny. In my particular experience, I could not really blame the clerk or the manager. Instead of technology serving the customers, the clerks and the customers are forced into submission to the technology.

 

[unshelledpilot]

I cannot speak for or against the clerk in your case. The old days of the clerk being able to simply enter the price are loong gone. Technology is in control.

Sometimes it is not the lack of ability to figure the math as much as forcing the computerized inventory system to allow it. I used a coupon at Arby's today and the normally competent clerk called the manager over. She had to make about 50 key strokes and use her over ride switch key to correct the price. She was sorry for the delay. SHe said she has been calling the IT people all week as the software was never updated to allow the entering of the advertised special on my coupon. These big corporations use electronics to micro manage to the exact penny. In my particular experience, I could not really blame the clerk or the manager. Instead of technology serving the customers, the clerks and the customers are forced into submission to the technology.

Another facet of the problem: the smartphoneification of society. I had a conversation with one of my law professors about the advance of tech in regards to smart phones and the internet. He said that one day tech would advance to a point where you could interface it with your mind and have direct access to the internet. I told him that we're almost to that point. I made some observations about my first year in college taking all the basic 101/102 courses and how I was supposedly in an advanced learning environment, yet less than 30% of any class I was in could read without stopping or getting hung up on big words. It astounds me that people now choose not to retain info because of the smartphone in their pocket.

 

[Leo]

It astounds me that people now choose not to retain info because of the smartphone in their pocket.

Those smart phones work pretty well for people, at least until the tower drops the signal, physical realities interfere with the transmission, the battery dies or it gets stolen or dropped in the toilet. Then what do they have to work with?

 

[actaeon277]

Smartphones are great, as a tool.
But for too many, the smartphone is a crutch.

 

[amboy49]

Smartphones ard great, as a tool.
But for too many, the smartphone is a crutch.

Someone care to explain how we coped with people previously doing long division and multiplication on their paper tablet and now using a calculator ?

I'm not disagreeing with the assertion that public schools have dumbed down the education process and dismissed the need, to a larger degree, for cognitive thought. However, I think this premise must be viewed as industry specific. Try to duplicate the science of launching a man into space without using computers and see how long it takes - if it can be done at all.

The "problem" is not with automation nor technology as I see it. I feel the problem runs deeper and relates to the theory espoused surrounding the entitlement attitude. I feel, too often, the premise is offered that "I've just been too disadvantaged all my life by either the system or the man" rather than to demonstrate initiative and perseverance.

To underscore this theory look at first generational immigrants - especially those from Asian countries. The further the legacy of immigration extends through subsequent generations the lower the level of self improvement is exhibited.

 

[unshelledpilot]

Someone care to explain how we coped with people previously doing long division and multiplication on their paper tablet and now using a calculator ?

I'm not disagreeing with the assertion that public schools have dumbed down the education process and dismissed the need, to a larger degree, for cognitive thought. However, I think this premise must be viewed as industry specific. Try to duplicate the science of launching a man into space without using computers and see how long it takes - if it can be done at all.

The "problem" is not with automation nor technology as I see it. I feel the problem runs deeper and relates to the theory espoused surrounding the entitlement attitude. I feel, too often, the premise is offered that "I've just been too disadvantaged all my life by either the system or the man" rather than to demonstrate initiative and perseverance.

To underscore this theory look at first generational immigrants - especially those from Asian countries. The further the legacy of immigration extends through subsequent generations the lower the level of self improvement is exhibited.

You hit right on the money. The farther down the line you go, the more entitlement there is. The point I was making is that smartphones, and the internet in general, have made retaining info unnecessary. I can do basic math and some longer equations in my head, but younger generations can do a Google search and have the most advanced calculations done for them. Kids are lazy and having the wealth of human knowledge available at their fingertips doesn't help. Why learn when I can Google it? Why work when I can live off the gummint?

 

[hoosierdoc]

In the early 60's you could live off the minimum wage as a single income earner. That's not even true today, and hasn't been for a lot of years.

Americans would not be satisfied with 1960s comforts. Medical care, travel, electronics, etc. A single American could live on minimum wage in today's society. Not well, but they could. Work 60 hours a week, that's over $20k/year. Add the earned income tax credit and a single person could easily afford transportation, utilities, shelter, food. They wouldn't be eating out much or spending a lot of money on entertainment, but they'd clearly survive. Problem is now minimum wage jobs limit you to 27 hours so they aren't forced to give you healthcare, and people who work minimum wage jobs don't want to work 60 hours to earn enough to live on. They want that income level for working 27 hours.

Different times. Different expectations.

 

[hornadylnl]

You hit right on the money. The farther down the line you go, the more entitlement there is. The point I was making is that smartphones, and the internet in general, have made retaining info unnecessary. I can do basic math and some longer equations in my head, but younger generations can do a Google search and have the most advanced calculations done for them. Kids are lazy and having the wealth of human knowledge available at their fingertips doesn't help. Why learn when I can Google it? Why work when I can live off the gummint?

You walk out to your garage and turn the key in your ignition and go. Your ancestors had to saddle a horse or turn the crank on the front to start their car.

Almost every generation has had it better than the previous. If you want to heat your home, do you turn up the thermostat or do you spend days and weeks with an axe and a handsaw cutting wood for the stove?

This isn't a new thing.

 

[unshelledpilot]

You walk out to your garage and turn the key in your ignition and go. Your ancestors had to saddle a horse or turn the crank on the front to start their car.

Almost every generation has had it better than the previous. If you want to heat your home, do you turn up the thermostat or do you spend days and weeks with an axe and a handsaw cutting wood for the stove?

This isn't a new thing.

You're absolutely right. Progress is a good thing. I was merely pointing out that I think this generation is unique in the fact that they have the wealth of human knowledge at their fingertips and yet choose to do nothing with it. It's easier than ever to learn about anything; learn a trade or have a basic understanding of how to take care of themselves. I've seen so many teens and twenty somethings that I've worked with fall apart when the power is out, or when they lose a signal on their phone. I don't have to get wood for the stove or saddle up a horse, but I do know how to take care of my car and have extra clothes and blankets in case the power goes out. These kids in Chicago demanding a higher minimum wage are trying to turn burger flipping into a career; they want more money to go out and get the newest iPhone and Jordan's. The people that I've talked to about this have no interest in bettering themselves and would like the. gov to raise their wages, instead of working harder for it.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Why not make it $50/hr? I mean really. Let's just really help people out here.

 

[printcraft]

Minimum wage job is not a career. Social security is not a retirement plan. Welfare is not how you become upwardly mobile.

 

[jwh20]

Why not make it $50/hr? I mean really. Let's just really help people out here.

You cheapskate! $50/hr? Why not $150?? That would ensure that all those McDonald's workers would not only have enough for themselves but would have extra to share with those less fortunate and we could wipe out all poverty worldwide in a stroke of the legislative pen.

So anytime some bozo is claiming that these people deserve $15/hr because it's a "living wage", ask them why so little? The answer they give will allow you to blow holes in either their understanding or MIS-understanding of economics.

My bottom line is this: Any (and I mean ANY including WalMart) employer that pays its employees LESS than they are worth, will lose the best of them to competitors. Any employer who pays their employees MORE than they are worth will eventually go out of business or will replace those employees with a lower-cost solution. That may be automation, or lowered customer service, or outsourcing, or off-shore production, and all these will put that worker OUT of a job.

The liberals think just raising minimum wage will resolve things because it "feels" right. But WalMart and McDonald's pay workers what they pay them for very good reasons. My experience is that MOST of these workers are NOT even worth the minimum!

 

[MilliJac]

Even if things WERE to get automated, someone at some company would need to sell that automaton, someone would need to build it, someone would need to repair it, and someone would need to fill it with burgers & fries. So, by that 'logic', 1 job would be 'lost', but 4 would be gained. And all likely higher paid than minimum wage. Not a bad trade-off, actually.

...Did I just... Did I just read that? That might in fact be the least logical argument I have ever read in my life. Someone that says that has exactly no knowledge of automation.

1) "someone at some company would need to sell that automaton"
This would be done at a regional level, with the equipment being purchased in quantity for all branches in almost every situation. This would take a few days of a few salespersons' time. To equate that to a 365 8hrs/day full time job for the restaurant is so far beyond untruthful it makes me a bit sick.

2) "someone would need to build it"
Again. Maybe a few hours from a few workers/robots on an assembly line. To call this a full time job for the restaurant is gross.

3) "someone would need to repair it"
If this machine has to have someone standing by it 8 hours a day to make sure it doesn't go down you need a refund. You fundamentally misunderstand how exact and reliable industrial/commercial robots are. I design End of Arm Tools for industrial robots. I like to think I know a little about them. They are marvels of engineering, and very nearly never have any problems. Again, a few days a year, if even close to that, does not a full time job make.

4) "and someone would need to fill it with burgers & fries"
I'll give you this one. 1 guy could hold down the fort in a fully automated fast food restaurant. 1 full time job. Fire the other 8 slackers.

So, lets recap. A few days from the salesperson, a few days from the manufacturer, a few hours for machine repair, and 1 full time job to refill and maintain all of the machines in the restaurant. Now, fire the other 8 burger flippers and hire 3 shifts worth of machine fillers and call it a business day.

Automation WILL continue to replace low skill jobs. Aside from startup costs, which continue to drop as the technology evolves, they are more economical than workers in nearly every way. No wages, no healthcare, no OSHA considerations, etc. The only real input is electricity, which is not actually as expensive for businesses as you'd think.

I feel the rest of the argument has been addressed well by others, so I will not duplicate words.

 

[KittySlayer]

1) "someone at some company would need to sell that automaton"

2) "someone would need to build it"

3) "someone would need to repair it"

4) "and someone would need to fill it with burgers & fries"

I am guessing that all of these "Someones" will be making more than whatever arbitrary minimum wage the government sets.

 

[jwh20]

I am guessing that all of these "Someones" will be making more than whatever arbitrary minimum wage the government sets.

Yes, of course, and I am one of those "someones" who, as an engineer, not only makes a lot more than minimum wage but works on automating things. But there are a lot fewer of me than those who work at unskilled minimum-wage jobs.

But I'm a huge proponent of free-market economics. The socialist theology says that government (i.e. central planning) can make better decisions but NOWHERE in the world has this EVER been the case. Central planning leads to stupid decisions, as is almost always the case with government, because there is NO penalty for stupidity. In fact, stupidity is usually rewarded and risk takers are shot.

Where is a socialist economy thriving? Don't tell me China because it's the free-market reforms there that have caused that nation to take off like a rocket. USSR? Well, they imploded under the weight of their own central planning while their people starved. Cuba? Hardly a success story. Vietnam? Not socialist any longer!