Modern Samurai Project Black Belt Standards

[cedartop]

That's interesting to me. That was one of the things that stood out immediately to me, and also the three other guys I shoot with regularly, who run dots on handguns.

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Maybe you are just exceptional. I was in an Ernest Langdon Advanced Pistol Skills class a couple of years ago. John Johnston (who was not shooting dots at the time) was in the class and mentioned to Ernest after another student besides myself shot real well on the mover while himself moving. Both John and Ernest agreed that you almost never see that and made that comment to the other student. He told them he couldn't do it with the dot, he had it off and was using the sights for that part. IME it is tougher to shoot while moving with the dot. Can it be done, sure. Can it be done well? With a lot of practice. Scott may have a different take on that, but in the lot of students I have seen with dot guns, it seems to be a common theme along with the initial slower up close.

 

[devildog70]

Maybe you are just exceptional. I was in an Ernest Langdon Advanced Pistol Skills class a couple of years ago. John Johnston (who was not shooting dots at the time) was in the class and mentioned to Ernest after another student besides myself shot real well on the mover while himself moving. Both John and Ernest agreed that you almost never see that and made that comment to the other student. He told them he couldn't do it with the dot, he had it off and was using the sights for that part. IME it is tougher to shoot while moving with the dot. Can it be done, sure. Can it be done well? With a lot of practice. Scott may have a different take on that, but in the lot of students I have seen with dot guns, it seems to be a common theme along with the initial slower up close.

I can assure you, that is NOT the case. LOL

 

[BehindBlueI's]

And for some people (and most people eventually) who can't see iron sights anymore, regardless of how big or what color, the red dot is a viable solution. Red blob where you want the shot to go, execute a good trigger press without disturbing the alignment of the gun, success.

That's honestly my main reason for saying I'll get there eventually. I don't have any experience using them on the move, I can't comment on that. I can make 100y hits with irons for now, and while a neat parlor trick is unlikely to be of much use to me. My main concerns are lack of quick disconnect, so if it gets dropped in the snow, mud, or otherwise blocks the lens you're without any sighting system other than slide index and concerns of durability. Yes, some folks are reporting 20k with no issues, but it's rolling an expensive set of dice. I'd like a mount that lets you eject the system if needed and let the tech mature a bit, which so far I have the luxury of doing.

 

[Coach]

Not only the tone of the thread but now the topic. INGO has turned to gear as the answer again. Skill is arbitrary standards and unrealistic. Let's now talk about red dots and their pros and cons.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not only the tone of the thread but now the topic. INGO has turned to gear as the answer again. Skill is arbitrary standards and unrealistic. Let's now talk about red dots and their pros and cons.

What, other than gear, addresses failing eyesight?

The standards are arbitrary. I think that's settled and has been for awhile. Particularly with the originator is here telling us he based it on on other geegaw tests, not some correlation to outcomes in games or real world use.

As far as the topic changing...well, yeah, that's how forums and conversations in general work. One thing leads to another.

 

[Fargo]

I just want to say that I really appreciate those who have dropped by to explain how we are stupid for discussing red dot sights with a red dot sight expert in a thread about red dot sight standards. You have given me insight, that I never could have considered.

Topic and tone may change, but I guess sour grapes are forever.

The guy who created the standards came by and said they were standards to demonstrate speed of red dot sights vs irons.

My intent was to teach and push students to master levels of performance rivaling and surpassing standards for iron sighted pistols. In the hopes to squash the myth that RDS are inherently slower than iron sights

That actually makes complete sense to me, if you are trying to demonstrate comparability in one dimension, specifically sight acquisition while speed drawing/shooting , you create a test excluding other variables.

We tried having a conversation about skills a couple of pages back, but that wasn’t OK unless speed of draw/hit was the only skill being focused on.

 

[Coach]

So the preconceived notions remain in place. No minds were changed. No enlightenment was achieved. Standards are completely arbitrary. Long ago established in some minds.

Why does LE do quals?
Why do people have to take drivers tests?
Why are doctors lawyers and other professions required to prove ability? Because results matters and standards are a way of doing that.

Why do some want to focus on skills that cannot be measured like Situational Awareness and yet down play the ability to bullets where they need to be or at least down play how quickly that needs to be done? I suspect it is a mental defense mechanism.

Some wanted to say they standards were irrelevant because some folks cannot do them. Others want to say they do not matter because they are marketing. If a standard was to be based on one historical example or others does that make them more valid?

It seems to me that this thread changed because some do not want to put in the work to achieve a standard. Perhaps because they cannot do it. Perhaps because they don't want to put in the time. Perhaps because they don't want to make honest conclusions about objective standards. There has been a fair amount of it is too hard. It does not matter. Tell me why I should be able to perform to this standard.

I see it as a lot of people being critical of excellence and performance. Which is pretty typical in this world. Lots of folks like to chock success and skill up to natural ability rather than work ethic and skill development. The gun world wants to talk about gear as well as a favorite way to make up for the lack of skill. It is the Indian not the arrow.

Many people want a standard to test themselves against. Patches, pins and such are a thing that folks like. I do not fully understand why. I just want the skill. Skills and abilities that are self evident are the reason I practice. People in the shooting sports love classification. Most competitors will talk about their classification because that is a standard that means something. Fewer people talk about winning or being on top, that is much harder.

 

[Fargo]

LOL, The most dogmatic person in this thread is complaining about preconceived notions?

The paternalistic know it allism is getting pretty old.

 

[chezuki]

LOL, The most dogmatic person in this thread is complaining about preconceived notions?

The paternalistic know it allism is getting pretty old.

Did you have a coach touch you inappropriately as a child? You seem to be on a vendetta.

 

[Fargo]

Did you have a coach touch you inappropriately as a child? You seem to be on a vendetta.

This thread was a civil discussion of different viewpoints up until post number 69.

I know you guys know each other and shoot together and by all accounts are all pretty damn good at it.

None of that is very persuasive to me when someone constantly mischaracterizes the things that I’ve said and feels they need disparage my conversations with other people.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Why does LE do quals?

Because it's expected and because liability. And, yes, the qualifications are completely arbitrary with so little bearing on real world shootings that NYPD's SOP reports have yet to find any correlation with range results and officer survival in gunfights. IIRC, Force Science found the same results, but that's going from memory. Police Policy Studies made the comment over 15 years ago that:

What is emerging, though slowly, is the recognition that firearms training must be addressed within task-oriented contexts. Call it role-playing, scenario-based training, or any other reasonable facsimile you’d like, the “when” and “where” to use firearms is finally being seen as being as essential as the “how” issue of using a firearm.

Performance in FoF training has more predictive value in "real world" outcomes then range qualifications. That's much harder to measure, though, particularly if you need to attach a number to it and put it in a file.

It seems to me that this thread changed because some do not want to put in the work to achieve a standard.

Maybe. I'll never have a 5 second FAST coin because I'll never work my reloads that hard and I don't want to put in the work to achieve that particular standard, even though I have fun shooting the FAST. I could probably get a pin if I trained to the drill and took another Langdon class, but as you said I'm more worried about the skill then the geegaws. Do fast reloads matter? Not for what I do. Do I base that on the fact I don't want to work them or literally decades of police studies that show it doesn't make a difference in gun fights? Guess.

So maybe, just maybe, it's not about not wanting to put the work in or to meet some standard, it's about evaluating what standard matters objectively and not just based on what my hobby is or what I find fun to work on. Should I work on an appendix draw from "nervous ready" to beat some time, or should I work my double retention duty holster even though I'll never make the "standard" with it? Is my time and money better spent working reloads or reading on, and preparing, a survivor mindset to better deal with post shooting aftermath?

I've covered the marketing multiple times. Marketing isn't good or evil, it just is. There's no value judgement there, any more than I blame Oreos for having TV commercials.

 

[Fargo]

I blame Oreos for some of my uh “big-bonedness” (huh huh).

My normal carry is in a ALS retention holster in concealment because of the peculiar nature of my situation. It is far from the fastest set up, but that isn’t my only concern. The only way I practice my draw stroke is from that holster from concealment because that’s how I carry it. (I also practice with my BUG but not as much as I should.)

I also train/practice retention pretty regularly, once again because it fits my need.

I may consider a red dot down the road, but at present I see no way to justify the money or re-training it would require compared to my current set up.

Rubber meets the road, I have been largely off my feet in the past month with an ankle injury. Today was the first day I really tested it out, as I had a whole bunch of wood that I needed to split and haul to the backyard. My current fatigue level has convinced me that my current “training” priority needs to be to to get this ankle healed to where I can get back into shape.

 

[G192127]

I hope some of you realize that I, like many others here, read the title to this topic(thread) and thought it was a joke. I mean really "samauri ninja blackbelt adnausem merit badge..." WTF?
Takin' yourself pretty seriously there killer...coins and tokens and merit badges and geehaw-whimmydiddles.
"You can have my red-dot when you pry it from my cold dead hands..."
Some of you take yourselves y to seriously- get some help, before you start losing sleep....I want one!
Tell me where to send the boxtops and stamps and I'll proudly wear it!(right beside my "concealed carry" badge)!

 

[devildog70]

I hope some of you realize that I, like many others here, read the title to this topic(thread) and thought it was a joke. I mean really "samauri ninja blackbelt adnausem merit badge..." WTF?
Takin' yourself pretty seriously there killer...coins and tokens and merit badges and geehaw-whimmydiddles.
"You can have my red-dot when you pry it from my cold dead hands..."
Some of you take yourselves y to seriously- get some help, before you start losing sleep....I want one!
Tell me where to send the boxtops and stamps and I'll proudly wear it!(right beside my "concealed carry" badge)!

Did you even read the explanation? Pretty simple - if it doesn't interest you (or even seeing where on the standards you would fall), don't worry about them. Nobody is taking anything too seriously, other than perhaps, you.

Rogers Shooting School has had their ratings for decades. The FAST coin has been a thing for years. If they aren't your thing, great.

 

[rhino]

I hope some of you realize that I, like many others here, read the title to this topic(thread) and thought it was a joke. I mean really "samauri ninja blackbelt adnausem merit badge..." WTF?
Takin' yourself pretty seriously there killer...coins and tokens and merit badges and geehaw-whimmydiddles.
"You can have my red-dot when you pry it from my cold dead hands..."
Some of you take yourselves y to seriously- get some help, before you start losing sleep....I want one!
Tell me where to send the boxtops and stamps and I'll proudly wear it!(right beside my "concealed carry" badge)!

That's nice.

So how do you assess your own level of competency? Do you compete? Participated in training that had a test of some kind to pass the course? Have you completed some standard drills and recorded your performance? Been in some gunfights and survived to talk about it afterward? Anything?

 

[AsianJedi]

A little more detail on the development of the standards.

NOTE: My AIWB class is open to iron sight pistols as well. There is no time difference for irons...

3 x 2 was meant to develop the shooters ability to use gross sight pictures then quickly transition to a refined sight picture in the same string of fire. It demonstrates my philosophy "Only use the appropriate amount of information to make an appropriately accurate shot at the speed and distance required".

7 yard 1 shot is use to develop a concentration on an efficient draw, presentation, trigger prep, indexes, etc. Poorly executing these skills are the main culprit for not finding the dot quickly on presentation. Why 1 second? With the proper instruction, it isn't that hard.

To do a Bill Drill from concealment in 2 seconds, everything must be very solid. The draw, grip, presentation, recoil control, indexes, splits, etc. I used 2 seconds because that used to be the old competition standard to show proficiency. To do it that standard from concealment and with a dot is significant.

The 25 yard 1 shot is an exercise in modulation. Until now, We have executed with a high sense of urgency, now we need to learn to be more careful, not slow down, be more careful. To accomplish this, one must learn that the draw must remain the same yet the presentation must smooth out before the end to accomplish a more precise shot.

I teach all these methods throughout the two day class. The methodology of learning the efficiencies should trickle over to all other aspects of the mechanics of shooting.

I hope this sheds a little more light on my standards.

 

[Coach]

A little more detail on the development of the standards.

NOTE: My AIWB class is open to iron sight pistols as well. There is no time difference for irons...

3 x 2 was meant to develop the shooters ability to use gross sight pictures then quickly transition to a refined sight picture in the same string of fire. It demonstrates my philosophy "Only use the appropriate amount of information to make an appropriately accurate shot at the speed and distance required".

7 yard 1 shot is use to develop a concentration on an efficient draw, presentation, trigger prep, indexes, etc. Poorly executing these skills are the main culprit for not finding the dot quickly on presentation. Why 1 second? With the proper instruction, it isn't that hard.

To do a Bill Drill from concealment in 2 seconds, everything must be very solid. The draw, grip, presentation, recoil control, indexes, splits, etc. I used 2 seconds because that used to be the old competition standard to show proficiency. To do it that standard from concealment and with a dot is significant.

The 25 yard 1 shot is an exercise in modulation. Until now, We have executed with a high sense of urgency, now we need to learn to be more careful, not slow down, be more careful. To accomplish this, one must learn that the draw must remain the same yet the presentation must smooth out before the end to accomplish a more precise shot.

I teach all these methods throughout the two day class. The methodology of learning the efficiencies should trickle over to all other aspects of the mechanics of shooting.

I hope this sheds a little more light on my standards.

Sounds like logic, reason, system and a purpose to the standards. So not

ar·bi·trar·y
ˈärbəˌtrerē/
adjective
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• based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"his mealtimes were entirely arbitrary"[/COLOR]
  

  synonyms:

  capricious, whimsical, random, chance, unpredictable; More

  
  
  
  
  

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[nakinate]

I got the range this morning to try these standards. I forgot to do the 3&2 drill before I ran out of ammo but I did get numbers on the others. I used a Beretta Elite LTT concealed AIWB. I warmed up with Dot Torture at 4 yards. I scored 48/50.

Bill Drill: 2.74 clean
Draw to Alpha 7 yards: 1.19 was my best but 1.30 is the time where it’s repeatable for me
Draw to Alpha 25 yards: 1.75 seconds. It didn’t matter how many times I did it, 1.75 was all I could do.

Clearly I have a long way to go, but I’m happy with where I’m at because it’s a far cry from where I’ve been. I’ve been lazy on dry practice and hadn’t been to the range in two weeks, so these are pretty realistic numbers for me in my estimation.

 

[Bfish]

I got the range this morning to try these standards. I forgot to do the 3&2 drill before I ran out of ammo but I did get numbers on the others. I used a Beretta Elite LTT concealed AIWB. I warmed up with Dot Torture at 4 yards. I scored 48/50.

Bill Drill: 2.74 clean
Draw to Alpha 7 yards: 1.19 was my best but 1.30 is the time where it’s repeatable for me
Draw to Alpha 25 yards: 1.75 seconds. It didn’t matter how many times I did it, 1.75 was all I could do.

Clearly I have a long way to go, but I’m happy with where I’m at because it’s a far cry from where I’ve been. I’ve been lazy on dry practice and hadn’t been to the range in two weeks, so these are pretty realistic numbers for me in my estimation.

Is this being shot with a dot or irons?

 

[nakinate]

Is this being shot with a dot or irons?

​

Irons